Billy the Kid's 1873 Winchester

[Dead I]

Stillwater:  Yeah I've been challenged to a duel several times by people whose family took a hit from Billy or his bunch.  Funny. I do have some rather compelling evidence that the kid and I are kin.  Not that I'm trying to prove it. If it is, it is and I'm not going to fall on my sword over it.

My ggggrandfather was William McCarty of Indianapolis.  He had four boys (daughters too).  They were William Henry, Elijah (my gggrandfather who knew my father) John and Robert M.  John joined the army in Indianapolis in Sept 1862. William Antrim was discharged from the army in Oct 1862 at the same place.  In the old family bible (now lost!) I saw "Catherin McCarty".  John died in Andersonville prison in November 1864.  Did he meet Antrim in Indianapolis when he joined? Did he ask him to look after his wife and two boys while he was gone?  We know that Catherin and W.H. Antrim lived together for several years before they married.  Was she waiting for John to return?  We also know that Antrim said that Catherin was married "to McCarty".  My gggrandfather, Elijah told my father that he had a brother who died in Andersonville.  His grave is down there.  He was in the 6th Indiana Volunteer Infantry.  Photos I've seen of Billy look exactly like photos of my paternal grandfather.  He knew this story but would not discuss it.  He took the secret to his grave.

[Herbert]

For me this is all very interesting,lots of photos I have never seen,it has always suprised me how young a lot of the players in the war were even the rich ones

[Dead I]

For me this is all very interesting,lots of photos I have never seen,it has always suprised me how young a lot of the players in the war were even the rich ones

I am too astounded by the youth of the people involved in the Lincoln County War.  I read that most of the texas cowboys were teenagers.  Most of the kids who joined the Marine Corps when I did were teenagers too.  I was 19.  I was not the youngest. 

It is very likely that you have never seen the pictures that I post since they are generally unknown. Certainly they have never been published.  I know it's unbelievable, but I found them in a little store.  I'll start a new thread and post the Regulators that I have.  Now, some are guesses, since there are no other pictures of some of these guys.  I'll post one or two at a time.  I don't know why they come out so large. 

[FEATHERS]

Billy with his brother Joe??? Billy out on the Town???

[FEATHERS]

missed one

[Stillwater]

Stillwater:  Yeah I've been challenged to a duel several times by people whose family took a hit from Billy or his bunch.  

<snip>

Duel? Nah, do it the way it was traditionally done in the Old West... Ambush'em, Shoot'em from behind...!  

It's the Code Of The West, and we have to respect Old West traditions don't we?

Bill

[Dead I]

Duel? Nah, do it the way it was traditionally done in the Old West... Ambush'em, Shoot'em from behind...!  

It's the Code Of The West, and we have to respect Old West traditions don't we?

Bill

Well, Billy had a fool proof system.  He'd hide behind a wall and when his querry got very close he's shoot him in the chest with a rifle.  He had good success with this technique, and I think it'd still work today.  Garrett, of course, was expert at this too; maybe better.

There were not many walk up and start shoot'n fights in the Old West.  I guess, the OK Corral fracus is about as close to the "classic" gunfight that most of us know about.  The deal was even a slight hit could be fatal. 

[Dead I]

Here's another.  I strongly believe this is the  Kid:

I think this is Billy just after his capture at Stinking Springs. He is wearing the new suit that Mike Cosgrove bought for him to stand trial in.  We see the Kid a bit older here.  He is leaner.  His hairline has receded some.  That plain gray background I think is probably the inside of a jail cell. If I am correct this picture would have been taken  on the morning of 27 December 1880 in Las Vegas.

[FEATHERS]

no comment on the pics I posted???

[Dead I]

Billy with his brother Joe??? Billy out on the Town???

This picture has only been around for about five years, maybe less.  I read the provenance for it and it wasn't very good. It came from a town where Billy might have ridden through. But to me that's not all that important.  I don't think it's Billy and Josie, but I do think they are brothers.  There has been some discussion of their shoes being wrong as I recall.  I don't think either fellow looks much like the kid.  But as always I hold out that it may be Billy and Josie, I'm just not bet'n on it.

[Dead I]

missed one

I've seen this picture before too.  It's from an album that was supposed to be owned by someone who was involved in the Lincoln County War.  To me, this falls under the catagory that any picture of a young man of the era becomes Billy the Kid.  I don't think he looks like the kid.  His face is not round enough.  Billy had big, full cheeks and a small, thick but narrow mouth.  His hair was very curly.  This young man's mouth doesn't look right to me.  But he is sort of hamming for the camera, something Billy would have done.

The pictures of Billy that I found were owned by Sallie L. Chisum Robert and went from her to her niece who kept them until her death.  Then after about two decades her family opened up her home and sold of its contents.  These pictures were thrown into pick doughnut boxes and sold.  They went to a local antique store where I found them.  

I went to the home of Sallie's niece and met her children, grandchildren and great grandchildren.  All Chisum's. They have a large private archive I found this pictures in their collection. It is unpublished and never before seen:

[Dead I]

Many of you will recognize this adobe house.  It's the "Long House" built at about the time of "Ol John's" death.  He died on 22 December 1884.  This pictures dates from 1887.  I have seen the original from which this picture was taken.  On the reverse in Walter Chisum's handwriting one sees the names of the people depicted.  The couple on the left are Walter and Inez Chisum.  The little boy on the fence is little Fred T. Robert, Sallie's younger son.  Sallie herself is standing with the women on the far right. 

Most of you have seen the famous picture of the Chisum cowboys that shows them standing to the left of the Long House.  This image was taken at the same time, only after the cowboys had ridden off.  You can just see their tracks along the front of the house.  I saw the original of that photo too.

The family who own this picture also owned the two pictures of Billy that I bought.  I like the provenance.

[Dead I]

no comment on the pics I posted???

I just did. I commented on each one.  Sorry it took me so long.

[Dead I]

Did you notice the little boy standing on the left side of the fence in the Long House?  I wrote that he was Fred T. Robert.  Here's another picture of him taken soon before that one.  He is in Germany. He is wearing, I think, the same straw hat.

Notice how cute this little shaver is!  Not long after this Sallie and William seperated and later divorced.  He took their two boys, John E. and Fred T. Robert.  It broke Sallie's heart!  She did not see them, as far as I know, until after they graduated from high school in Hutchinson, Kansas.  They visited her in Roswell and she had their pictures taken. I have the originals of those two pictures.  Tintypes. I knew, years ago Fred's granddaughter.  She told me that it was Fred who changed their last name from "Robert" to "Roberts".  She said to avoid the confusion of having two first names.  

[Dead I]

These are pictures of Sallie's other boy John Ernest Robert, named after his paternal grandfather, who was a banker in Pritz, Germany for 45 years. 

John could read, therefore; he is shown with books, code in the Victorian age that someone was literate.  John was born in 1881 and Fred in 1884.  The family taveled to Germany in both 1886 and 1888.  William Robert wanted to sell the South Spring Ranch to a wealthy German. I've seen the original of his brochure.  It is in the Haley Memorial Library in Midleand, Tx.  When Wm. took 3000 head of Jinglebob cattle to the XIII ranch in SW Kansas in 1890, Sallie left him.  They divorced in 1893...or also see 1895. 

[FEATHERS]

Thanks Dead 1,I can't recall the site those pics are from,just interesting history.

[Dead I]

Thanks Dead 1,I can't recall the site those pics are from,just interesting history.

You are very welcome!  I too have seen those images.  I think the two men were posted on Nick McCarty's site about three years ago.  They were new then.  The other isn't very old either. 

[Dead I]

I found the two pictures that I am quite sure are of Billy Bonney within this group of Chisum family pictures.  Since many are of Sallie Chisum, her husband and herself I believe that provides evidence that it was her collection that I bought and since we know she knew Billy then it leads me to believe that she collected his pictures.  In addition I met with Sallie's relatives who recall the collection and live not far from me.  They knew where it had been stored and how it was sold.  At that time the identities of the people depicted had been long forgotten.  They ended up in a local antique shop.  I came along, recognized the people and over time, bought almost a hundred tintypes, all of the Chisum family and people who were involved in the Lincoln County War.

Before I found the collection I had been to Lincoln, studied the Upham image and read most of the books on the Kid.  Then I find these pictures!  Yep, I can't believe it either!  It's really too amazing to be true.  But it is!

[Texas John Ringo]

Just for fun, here is a picture of John Jones.  It's unknown. On the reverse is written, "John J."  I've matched to another picture of Jones that is well known.  I've posted that one too. I think they are reversed one to the other since mine is still "as in tintype and therefore a mirror image. I think the other has been fllip flopped. You can match them right down to the little pencil thin beard and light goatee.  Look closely, you can see it. IMO they are the same fellow.





[/quot]
Look at their ears and their location relative to their eyes. Also shape and size of the ears.
Don't look the same to me.

[Dead I]

They are most likely flipped one from the other.  The image with the hat has been heavily retouched.  You did notice the little goatee and the pencil think beard?  Same dude.  A cop did an overlay and told me they are the same fella.  Not only that I found this within Sallie's collection.  They style looks like a Morgan image, but his name is not embossed on the frame.  I have another picture of "Smith, J." and he is wearing the same clothing as this fellow.