Billy the Kid's 1873 Winchester

[Stillwater]

I don't know, I guess; how to discuss the gun with out discussing the kid too.

It is hard discussing BTK's firearms, without discussing the Kid also.

Bill

[MJN77]

Dead I,
I agree with MOST of what you said.  I believe Billy was a bit arrogant, at least to those he saw as enemies. Look at it like this, he was the ONLY regulator to stay around the area. When George and Frank left NM, they tried to get Billy to go with them but he would not. He stayed in and around Lincoln and made himself a pain in the butt to his enemies. If not arrogance, why would he do this? He felt he could do as he pleased. As for Sallie, I never said they were in love. I agree with you, she wasn't interested in him like "that". But I think they were a lot alike.(free spirited) I think she kept pictures of people that had an impact on her life, for good or bad. Like a collection of sorts.
It is documented that the Kid loved the local hispanics. Spoke their language "like a native" according to those that knew him. Also, I do think a lot of people were quite relieved at his demise.
Lastly, as to Billy the Kid's reputation as a "gunfighter", aside from the "war" killings he was a part of he only killed four men. Frank "Windy" Cahill in AZ, "Texas" Joe Grant in Fort Sumner, and James Bell and Robert Olinger when he escaped from jail. I think the Kid was actually quite restrained with his guns, including his 1873 WINCHESTER .
It was indeed a rougher time.

[Dead I]

Concerning the number of people the Kid killed with his '73 Winchester.

We know Billy killed Grant, Cahill, Bell and Olinger.  I think he put bullets into Brady, Carlyle, Baker, Morton, McClosky, maybe Roberts and probably Beckwith.  That makes eleven.  Garrett said the Kid killed ten, if memory serves. 

I knew Sallie Chisum's greatgranddaugher, her father was Bill Lee Roberts who lived with Sallie during the final fourteen years of her life.  If the women I knew was anything like her great grandmother she was a pistol!  Full of laughs and game for just about anything.  She also held a grudge.  She looked just like Sallie. I recall laughing so hard with her that we'd fall down.

I don't think the kid was as arrogant as he was confident.  I think he felt he lead a charmed life.  He always seemed to survive.  Nor do I think he was concerned much about his future.  He was a spur of the moment guy and impetuous.  And like the young Sallie he was a thrill seeker.

Sallie however looked to her future and therefore married a banker's son who was refined and educated.  Billy was none of those things.   

[MJN77]

Concerning the number of people the Kid killed with his '73 Winchester.

We know Billy killed Grant, Cahill, Bell and Olinger.  I think he put bullets into Brady, Carlyle, Baker, Morton, McClosky, maybe Roberts and probably Beckwith.  That makes eleven.  Garrett said the Kid killed ten, if memory serves. 

I knew Sallie Chisum's greatgranddaugher, her father was Bill Lee Roberts who lived with Sallie during the final fourteen years of her life.  If the women I knew was anything like her great grandmother she was a pistol!  Full of laughs and game for just about anything.  She also held a grudge.  She looked just like Sallie. I recall laughing so hard with her that we'd fall down.

I don't think the kid was as arrogant as he was confident.  I think he felt he lead a charmed life.  He always seemed to survive.  Nor do I think he was concerned much about his future.  He was a spur of the moment guy and impetuous.  And like the young Sallie he was a thrill seeker.

Sallie however looked to her future and therefore married a banker's son who was refined and educated.  Billy was none of those things.   

I assume you mean "Buckshot" Roberts and Bob Beckwith. For Roberts, he died from a single gunshot in the abdomen from Charlie Bowdre. Beckwith was killed in McSween's back yard after the Kid and the others escaped I believe.
McCloskey was shot once in the head, with Frank McNab as the most likely suspect.
Carlyle was most likely killed by his own posse.
Brady, Morten and Baker, oh yeah he probably put a slug or two in all of them.
I think Sallie was "taken" with Billy as far as his personality. But that was it.

[Dead I]

I assume you mean "Buckshot" Roberts and Bob Beckwith. For Roberts, he died from a single gunshot in the abdomen from Charlie Bowdre. Beckwith was killed in McSween's back yard after the Kid and the others escaped I believe.
McCloskey was shot once in the head, with Frank McNab as the most likely suspect.
Carlyle was most likely killed by his own posse.
Brady, Morten and Baker, oh yeah he probably put a slug or two in all of them.
I think Sallie was "taken" with Billy as far as his personality. But that was it.

When Billy was riding back to Lincoln after his conviction for Brady's death they stopped at Blazer's Mill.  Billy jumped from the wagon and walked over to where the shooting of Robert's occured.  He excitedly re enacted the event.  He said at that time that he shot Roberts.  As for Beckwith, Billy may have shot him since he was running and shooting from the back of the burning McSween adobe shooting as he went.  Bob Beckwith and John Jones were shooting back, along with three black soldiers.  Billy being a good natural shot may have snapped off the shot that hit Beckwith.  He also may have been the one who shot John Kinney's mustache off of his face.

[Dead I]

Carlyle was shot as he jumped through a window of the house the Kid and his gang where inside of.  The Kid, Rudabaugh and I think Folliard fired at him.  I doubt his friends, members of the posse shot  him.  They'd have no need to and they would have recognized him.  I don't think they were that frightened to fire off willy nilly. 

Billy's boys had been drinking.  Maybe Billy took a pull or two from the bottle too, but he wasn't known as a drinker.  Certainly Carlyle did. It's a matter of record. I think that one of Billy's bullets hit the popular blacksmith as he crashed through the window.  Billy being the best shot of the outlaw bunch and the fastest. He was probably shooting a Colt Lightening, so he could snap off two shots easily. I feel quite confident that the kid put bullets into Baker and Morton.  Not sure about McClosky.  If he didn't shoot Beckwith, then who did?  When those guys broke from the burning house in Lincoln they ran like hell into the brush, across the river and off into the hills to the north.  McSween, bible in hand walked outside and was shot down.  He had laid back and I think was alone.  Five men where shot down from the McSween side, including himself.
I don't know who shot McCloskey, but I wouldn't put it past the kid.  He was the most vociferous in his desire to avenge Tunstall's murder.

   

[MJN77]

Billy claimed to have shot Roberts because he THOUGHT he did, but he was wrong. According to George and Frank Coe, Charlie Bowdre fired the shot that killed him. Frank was sitting on the steps to Blazer's office trying to talk Buckshot into surrendering when Bowdre, George Coe, and John Middleton came around the corner of the building and ordered Roberts to give up. Roberts rose to his feet, brought his winchester to his hip and he and Bowdre fired at the same time. Bowdre's bullet hit Roberts in the groin just above the hips. In Frank Coe's words. "the dust flew from his clothes on both sides". Roberts bullet hit Charlie's belt buckle, smashing it and dropping his pistol belt to the ground. The bullet then glanced into George Coe's right hand mangling his index finger, resulting in the need to amputate the digit. Roberts went on to wound Middleton and Doc Scurlock in the barrage of gunfire. After the first shots, the other regulators joined in. As Buckshot backed into Dr. Blazer's office, the Kid made a dash at him thrusting the barrel of his rifle at Roberts and pulling the trigger. At the same time, Roberts jammed the barrel of his own empty rifle into the Kid's ribs, knocking the breath out of him and deflecting his aim. Billy's bullet hit the door frame and NOT Roberts, though Billy believed he had hit him. As the Kid retreated, Roberts barricaded the door of Blazer's office with a mattres from a cot and found a springfield officer's model carbine (according to Dr. Blazer's grandson)  on the wall. He also found a box of ammo for it. Roberts ends up killing Dick Brewer. After the loss of their leader, the regulators left Blazer's Mill and Buckshot Roberts died the next day.
For Beckwith, he led posse members into McSween's yard after the breakout. The Kid and the other few that made it out were already gone. McSween yells that "I shall surrender". Beckwith and a couple others enter the yard and confront McSween and three or four regulators. McSween suddenly yells " I shall never surrender". Both sides opened fire at point blank range. Beckwith fell with a bullet in his eye. McSween fell with five bullets in him. Three regulators were killed and one was wounded( Yginio Salazar)

[MJN77]

Carlyle was shot as he jumped through a window of the house the Kid and his gang where inside of.  The Kid, Rudabaugh and I think Folliard fired at him.  I doubt his friends, members of the posse shot  him.  They'd have no need to and they would have recognized him.  I don't think they were that frightened to fire off willy nilly.  

Billy's boys had been drinking.  Maybe Billy took a pull or two from the bottle too, but he wasn't known as a drinker.  Certainly Carlyle did. It's a matter of record. I think that one of Billy's bullets hit the popular blacksmith as he crashed through the window.  Billy being the best shot of the outlaw bunch and the fastest. He was probably shooting a Colt Lightening, so he could snap off two shots easily. I feel quite confident that the kid put bullets into Baker and Morton.  Not sure about McClosky.  If he didn't shoot Beckwith, then who did?  When those guys broke from the burning house in Lincoln they ran like hell into the brush, across the river and off into the hills to the north.  McSween, bible in hand walked outside and was shot down.  He had laid back and I think was alone.  Five men where shot down from the McSween side, including himself.
I don't know who shot McCloskey, but I wouldn't put it past the kid.  He was the most vociferous in his desire to avenge Tunstall's murder.

Carlyle was most likely shot by his own men. O' Folliard was not there. The Kid, Rudabaugh and Billy Wilson were. When the posse surrounded Jim Greathouse's ranch, Wilson asked to talk to Carlyle (because Wilson knew him). The head of the posse refused until Greathouse offered himself to the posse as collateral. After Carlyle entered the house he was not allowed to leave and according to some was forced to drink. The more he drank, the more agitated he became.After an hour or two, the Sherrif sent in a note demanding Carlyle's release and threatening to kill Greathouse. Shortly after, a shot was fired (probably accidently) by one of the posse members. Carlyle, thinking Greathouse had been killed and that his own life was now in danger, jumped through the window taking the drapes with him.. The possemen, thinking he was one of the outlaws trying to escape, fired at him. They would not have recognized him, being covered by the drapes. Joe Steck, one of Greathouse's employees (who was not covered in drapery) was exiting the front door at this moment and was also fired on. If the posse would fire on an unarmed employee walking out of a door, why not a man crashing through a window? After a seven hour standoff with dangerous outlaws, the posse was pretty jumpy.
All this stuff about Billy being the "best" and "fastest" shot is all BS. Not saying he was not a good shot, but doubt he was all that much better than the fellows around him. Also, the lightning "myth" is just that. The Kid was said, by Garrett to have had one on him at the time of his death. It is still debated weather the Kid was armed or not. The only picture of the Kid shows him wearing a Colt single action revolver. That pic was taken in 1880. Late enough in his career to have decided what he liked better.
Morton and Baker were executed. There were eleven regulators in the group that had captured the two. Both bodies bore eleven bullet holes. One shot from all of them. So yeah, I bet he shot both of them. Don't believe that the Kid killed everyone that died in the LCW. It ain't true. He did his share, but so did everybody else. Kid wasn't the only one that carried a gun and knew how to use it.

[MJN77]

Dead I, may I ask what books you have read about the Kid? If I am not overstepping any bounds, I would recommend Billy the Kid: a short and violent life by Robert M. Utley. The man did his research on the Kid. Lots of notes in the back of the book.
The west of Billy the Kid, by Fredrick Nolan.
The Lincoln County War, A documentery History, also by Fredrick Nolan.
Good info in these books.

[Dead I]

Dead I, may I ask what books you have read about the Kid? If I am not overstepping any bounds, I would recommend Billy the Kid: a short and violent life by Robert M. Utley. The man did his research on the Kid. Lots of notes in the back of the book.
The west of Billy the Kid, by Fredrick Nolan.
The Lincoln County War, A documentery History, also by Fredrick Nolan.
Good info in these books.

Sure: I've read Utley's book, The West of and the BTK Reader both by Nolan, BTK the Endless Ride by Wallis, Garrett's book, Dead Right, The Lincoln County War, by Caldwell,  BBB's illustrated books, all of them; several mention the Kid. To Hell on A Fast Horse, by Gardner, They Knew Billy the Kid, by Kadlec, Backtracks, Time Travels through New Mexico, by Vigil, Drew Gomber's little book on the Kid, Frontier Fighter, by Coe, The Saga of...my Burns, The Joy of the Birds, by Cooper (it's a novel), and Elizabeth Fackler's Billy book, also a novel. I've read articles in many magazines and in anthologies about the Old West.  In addition I've interviewed many of Sallie Chisum's family members and I've viewed their archive.  I've been all over Billy Country half a dozen times over a decade. I've interviewed Frank Coe's great granddaughter, and Paul Jones, who knew Lily Casey.  Gardner's new book is great!  I reference Nolan's books constantly.   
   

[MJN77]

Sure: I've read Utley's book, The West of and the BTK Reader both by Nolan, BTK the Endless Ride by Wallis, Garrett's book, Dead Right, The Lincoln County War, by Caldwell,  BBB's illustrated books, all of them; several mention the Kid. To Hell on A Fast Horse, by Gardner, They Knew Billy the Kid, by Kadlec, Backtracks, Time Travels through New Mexico, by Vigil, Drew Gomber's little book on the Kid, Frontier Fighter, by Coe, The Saga of...my Burns, The Joy of the Birds, by Cooper (it's a novel), and Elizabeth Fackler's Billy book, also a novel. I've read articles in many magazines and in anthologies about the Old West.  In addition I've interviewed many of Sallie Chisum's family members and I've viewed their archive.  I've been all over Billy Country half a dozen times over a decade. I've interviewed Frank Coe's great granddaughter, and Paul Jones, who knew Lily Casey.  Gardner's new book is great!  I reference Nolan's books constantly.  

You're about like me, I read everything I can get hold of about the Kid. God knows how many books over the last 20 years. I have not read George Coe's book yet. The info I have posted are what seem to be the "general" story as I find them in most books and first hand accounts etc.

[Drayton Calhoun]

The Spring 2010 issue of Guns of the Old West touches on the Kid's guns, leather and has a CSI-type computer enhanced photo of the one Del posted that brings out a lot of details. I thought it was worth the cover price just for that.

The enhanced photo was good, but it made it look as if part of the Kid's left trigger finger was missing, this was commented on.

[MJN77]

Look close at it. His finger is just tucked under his thumb. You can see the crease where his finger is bent.

[Dead I]

The enhanced photo was good, but it made it look as if part of the Kid's left trigger finger was missing, this was commented on.

There is a tale that says someone dug up the Kid's grave and cut off his trigger finger.  I don't know if it happened however.  I rather doubt it.  I've seen an unknown picture of the kid and he's got all of his fingers.  Have you seen the one with Deluvina and Paulita Maxwell?  In that picture we see the kid full standing holding a Winchester rifle a gold watch chain and I think he may have a pistol inside his shirt.  Paulita is holding a fly fishing rod and kreel. My copy of that picture is a little out of focus. 

[Fox Creek Kid]

If I remember correctly the Kid's Win. is in the Texas Ranger Museum in Waco, Texas.

[Dead I]

Beckwith and a couple others enter the yard and confront McSween and three or four regulators. McSween suddenly yells " I shall never surrender". Both sides opened fire at point blank range. Beckwith fell with a bullet in his eye. McSween fell with five bullets in him. Three regulators were killed and one was wounded( Yginio Salazar)

Great detailed post of the events!  Concerning Billy's excape from the McSween house: Harvey Morris broke first and was shot down in front of the Kid, then came the Kid.  I don't know how long it took the others to follow.  McSween hesitated for several minutes.  Did the three Regulators who were killed hang around too, or did they sprint after the Kid?  I thought that they did and that only McSween exposed himself to be shot down.  We know that the Kid and some others forded the river and met on the other side and whooped and hollered and fired off some rounds.

[Dead I]

If I remember correctly the Kid's Win. is in the Texas Ranger Museum in Waco, Texas.

I believe the 73 Winchester that we see in the Ruidoso River Museum in Ruidoso is correct.  The kid did carry a half oct 73 Winchester.  Garrett is supposed to have confiscated it after he killed Billy.  The gun in the museum in Ruidoso is a half oct 73 that has been cut two inches ubove where the barrel turns round and has had a new front sight attached.  Kids used the gun as a plaything for years and it's in lousy shape.  When new, however it had a longer barrel and was a beauty.  I'm working on how to post pictures here.  If I can figger it out I'll post one of the kid and the 73.

[MJN77]

  Great detailed post of the events!  Concerning Billy's excape from the McSween house: Harvey Morris broke first and was shot down in front of the Kid, then came the Kid.  I don't know how long it took the others to follow.  McSween hesitated for several minutes.  Did the three Regulators who were killed hang around too, or did they sprint after the Kid?  I thought that they did and that only McSween exposed himself to be shot down.  We know that the Kid and some others forded the river and met on the other side and whooped and hollered and fired off some rounds.

Thank you sir.
From what I have read when the break out happened, Tom O'Folliard, Jose Chaves y Chaves, Harvey Morris and the Kid all made a dash for the river at the same time (about 9:00 p.m.). Even though the house was in flames, the group was not seen untill they were half way into the ally between McSween's house and Tunstall's store. (adobe wall around McSween's yard shaded this area) When they were noticed by Sheriff Peppen's posse, said posse opened a very "hot" fire on them. Morris was shot down but the rest of the group got through to the river. The other regulators and McSween were unable to leave the yard since the posse was aware of the escape route and had it in their sights. They made a couple of attempts to run, but were driven back into the yard by gunfire. McSween and the others were trapped with no other choices than to surrender or fight. The Kid and the regulators that escaped town, including those that were in the Montano and Ellis stores met up across the river. They did fire some scattered shots at the possemen, untill the fire was returned. They then vanished into the darkness and "faded away" into the hills to "fight another day".

[Dead I]

Am re-reading Utley's fine book.  He writes that Billy and a few others got away from the buring house and it wasn't until ten minutes or so that Beckwith and some others ran into the back yard.  There they demanded that McSween surrender and when he didn't he was shot down.  There were several McSween men there who must have shot Beckwith.  Billy, O'Folliard, and French had run to the north and ran alongside the Rio Bonito and ran down to the Ellis Store, where Ellis told them to get the hell out of there.  George Coe told him to "keep your shirt on, we've been in worse than this". After a bit they ran off again, stole some  horses and were gone towards Fort Sumner.

SO, when I stated that I thought the  Kid shot Beckwith I was wrong.  I was wrong once before....but I can't recall when.

[MJN77]

Utley's book was one of the first books about the Kid that I ever bought. I was about 14 or so. I still read it sometimes.