Billy the Kid's 1873 Winchester

[Dead I]

Lily Casey considered the Kid a waif.  He never did much of anything to be really proud of.  He never had much.  He never owned or even rented a house.  He never held a full time job, unless we consider the two months he worked for Tunstall as a full time  job. The Kid never married, but he may have fathered a few children and he did have a string oflady friends.  He never robbed anybody or knocked over a bank.  Billy the Kid, if we believe his testimoney made his living gambling.  Three Card monte being is favorite game, but he played poker too.  He said he didn't rustle, but we know he did and he did steal cattle and the occasional horse. I interviewed Walter Pitzer Chisum's grandson once.  He told me that "They hired him at the South Spring ranch occasionally but didn't use him much.  He wasn't very dependable."

Billy didn't give a whit about money, unless, according to George Coe, "To buy ammunition with". A box of shells was about as expensive (50 cents)then as it is today in real money.  The kid was constantly shooting at things. a rock, a tin can, etc...  He spent a lot of time taking his guns apart and cleaning them, oiling them and putting them back together, this again from the Coes.  He loved guns.  He loved to go to dances.  He loved telling jokes and singing around a piano.  He was always laughing.  He killed people.

[MJN77]

 Billy was know in his day all over the nation and in Europe.  The story of  his death was carried in papers in both coasts and the president was aware of the Lincoln County War.  The governor made a special effort to meet the Kid, so he was known.  He was,  however; generally forgotten until "The Saga of..." was published in 1926.  Indeed Hollywood made him more famous.  In his time the Kid was feared, and I believe he rather liked the fame/acclaim.  He finally tired of the danger and planned to go to Mexico, but tool late.

The Kid was known because of the dime novels, not for his actions. The president was aware of the Lincoln County War because of political allies of Dolan in Santa Fe. Governer Axtell, to name one. Billy is the one that made the effort to contact Governer Wallace. He sent the first of many letters to Wallace on March 13 1879. Billy volunteered to testify against Housten Chapman's killers in exchange for a pardon. Wallace agreed because he was trying to "clean up" Lincoln County. It was a benefit to Wallace as well. I say again, Billy the Kid was #11 on the NM most wanted list. Look it up. You think Kid was the only outlaw that Garrett would've been worried about? Rudabough was much more accomplished as an outlaw then Billy. It is easy to find if you look, the Kid was in fact not as revered as he is today. For the times, the LCW was "just another range war". The west was full of them, and Billy was just one of many players in it.

[liten]

garret admited in his that was scared , of the kid , who wouldnt be when it came to guns out

[MJN77]

garret admited in his that was scared , of the kid , who wouldnt be when it came to guns out

I think I know what you are saying. Anyone that is hunting an armed man that is willing to shoot you if he feels the need, should be a little scared. I bet he was just as scared of getting shot by any of the other outlaws involved.

[Buck Stinson]

Dead I,
I'm not trying to be a smart a%#, but the "serious" Winchester collector you spoke of, doesn't seem to be very knowledgeable when it comes to the 1873 model Winchester.  I've collected and studied Winchesters for almost 50 years.  In the past 20 years, I've concentrated primarily on the 1873 and 1876 model.  I can assure you that ALL 1873 model Winchester rifles, carbines and muskets had dust covers, except for those few in the serial range I mentioned in my earlier post.  Any good book on the 1873 will tell you the same thing.  This photo has been published a million times since the 1950's.  I have several early books that have what seem to be better copies of this photo.  In looking at one in particular, this gun could be a first model carbine.  Dust cover rails were not used on first model '73 Winchesters.  The first model dust covers were called mortised covers and they ran inside the top edges of the receiver.  In this photo, it looks like this gun has the mortised top on the receiver.  It also appears to have the first model lever and carbine rear sight.  However, this is extremely difficult to tell.  The only way to say for sure would be to have this very gun in hand or have the serial number.  If I had the serial number I could tell you in two minutes, what model the gun is AND the year it was made.

[MJN77]

Here ya go Buck.

early

later

[Buck Stinson]

MJN77,
Perfect illustrations.  I have a very early (1875) four digit '73 carbine with nearly 90% of it's original bright blue.  I thought I might have a picture of it in my Photo Bucket file, but I don't.  My plan was to do exactly what you did.  A picture is worth a thousand words.  Your 1st model carbine also has the early carbine rear sight I was talking about.  Thanks for posting.

[MJN77]

They aint mine, I found them on line. Just trying to help.

[Hangtown Frye]

I just was digging through "Firearms of the American West" by Worman and Garavaglia, and in it there is a photo of Bob Olinger's shotgun (which The Kid used to kill him with) and a Model 1873 Winchester, both identified in 1883 by Pat Garrett as having belonged to The Kid.  The Winchester is a Carbine, with a serial number reported as being #20181.  According to my Madis book, that would mean it was made in 1877, plenty of time to have gotten into The Kid's hands by 1881.  (And of course in the photo, which is a rather old one, there is a nice flash-flair right at the top of the receiver to completely hide what sort of cover might be on it.)

Anyway, hope this little tidbit is of some service.

Cheers!

Gordon

[Dead I]

The Kid was known because of the dime novels, not for his actions. 

I think that during his life and in his time the Kid was well known in and around Lincoln.  Stories about him were printed in papers on both coasts, as was the news of his death.  Frank Coe wrote that, "The kid was admired for his prowess, but he could be the meanst SOB that you ever saw."  Everyplace he went crowds gathered. He was often interviewed and locals clinged to his everyword. Garrett and Upson considered him important enough to write a book about the Kid within a few months of his death.  Therefore he must have been pretty well known, and pretty famous during his life. 

I agree that he was forgotten and not brought back to life until Burn's book. However when he was gathering info for that work he had no trouble finding people who recalled the Kid, so he was considered memorable by those who knew him. I spoke with Nellie Ruth Jones and she told me that when people would come by the Frank Coe household that Helena would not allow stories of the Kid to be spoken under her roof. She drove the visitor and Frank to the barn.  I think that you are understimating his fame at his time, but I have heard others who agree with you. 

[Dead I]

Dead I,
I'm not trying to be a smart a%#, but the "serious" Winchester collector you spoke of, doesn't seem to be very knowledgeable when it comes to the 1873 model Winchester.  I've collected and studied Winchesters for almost 50 years.  

What a wonderful picture of a fine old Winchester.  So can it be said that early, first model 73's had dust cover, but not the dust cover rail?  I have seen some that have the thumb print on them and others without.  I have a fine 73 made in 1883.  It has the dust cover and no thumb print on it.  It's a 32/20 rifle.

As I said I'm no expert on Winchesters.  I appreciate your info and that is a great carbine that you've got there. 

I also read that Garrett used a 44/40 SAA to shoot the Kid.  I cannot recall when Colt started making the 44WCF, but I think it was just before the Kid was killed.   

[MJN77]

Colt started chambering their revolvers in .44-40 in 1878. Garrett got his from Billy Wilson, one of the Kid's cohorts when the "gang" was captured at Stinking Springs.

[MJN77]

Of course he was known in and around Lincoln, he lived in the area. He also may have been admired, but again by people that knew him. Have you read Garrett's book. If so, this is for those that have not. The first 2/3 of the book are pure fiction. Ash Upson, the man that "co wrote" Pat's book even used his own B-Day for the Kid (Sept. 23) because they didn't know when it was. The book tells a lot of BS stories of the Kid's love of murder and basically says everyone killed in the Lincoln War was killed by the Kid himself. The reason Garrett wrote the book was to demonize the Kid, because a lot of people disliked Pat for killing a "kid" in the dark without a "fair chance" to defend himself. Garrett was seen as a coward. Garrett wrote the book to make himself look like a hero. But the book was a failure in sales. I didn't say no one outside of NM heard of the Kid, just that he was not the "hero" that some believe. We see news reports about criminals in other parts of the country every day, that doesn't mean they are famous. I think you are OVERestimating the fame of the fellow in his own time. He was well known around NM,west Texas and eastern Arizona, but not that much so elsewhere. As far as the Coe cousins, while they were great for a lot of useful information they also gave different accounts of some events. You must remember, they were not interviewed until the 1920s and 1930s. Over time, memories get more "exciting". They also get mixed up with other events. I have read an interview with WWII soldier where he mentions using an M2 carbine during the D-Day invasion. (M2s came out AFTER the war) George Coe is known for getting his events out of order too. Not saying they lied about anything, just that the interviews were 40 and 50 + years after the fact and they might have been struck with a little bit of nostalgia over a long gone friend. As for Burns, I would hope that people that rode with, hung around with, and were aquainted with the Kid would remember him. How many people have you forgotten that you used to know well? I remember my neighbors from when I was a kid (long ago) and I wasn't even close to them. That does not mean that they were memorable, just some people that I knew. I hope you do not think I am trying to fight with you, I have studied Billy the Kid for over 20 years and it is a subject that I hold dear for personal reasons. (nothing weird, just childhood memories) I enjoy the conversation.

[Buck Stinson]

MJN77,
You make an excellent point.  Just because a person is news worthy in one area, dosen't mean he's important in another part of the country.  I can guarantee you that Billy The Kid had no effect on the people here in Montana during his wondering days in N.M.  I'm sure that when news of his life and death eventually made it to Montana, it was of very little importance except to those people from  New Mexico, who may have moved to this area.  During that period, Montana had it's won share of bad guys, many of whom were much more dangerous than the Kid and for a longer period of time.  Did folks in New Mexico care?  I doubt it.

[Dead I]

Colt started chambering their revolvers in .44-40 in 1878. Garrett got his from Billy Wilson, one of the Kid's cohorts when the "gang" was captured at Stinking Springs.

Thanks for the info.  Mark Gardner, the author, writes that Garrett also confiscated the Kid's Colt Lightening...yes a Lightening, at Stinking Springs.  I think it was Gardner who wrote that the Kid was loaned a Thunderer shortly, a few months, before his death. 

[Dead I]

Of course he was known in and around Lincoln, he lived in the area. He also may have been admired, but again by people that knew him. 

Please understand, I'm not fighting either, just discussing.  I spoke with Nellie Ruth Jones, who was Frank Coe's granddaughter, but who was born after he died.  She was very close to Helena, Frank's wife who died in 1951.  Nellie Ruth told me that people would come by the ranch from time to time to discuss the Kid.  Helena wouldn't allow the kid's name to be uttered under her roof, so she'd chance the men out to the barn. 

I don't know how famous this makes the kid, but he was known.  Also we just consider that it was the Kid who caught the wrath from Tom Cantron and the House Ring.  Why just him?  (Yes I know the Coes were tried a few years later, and acquitted.)  For some reason the Kid was famous with his enemies, and I think we can agree on that point.  Why?  The Kid wasn't all that dangerous...unless he decided to kill you, then he would.  He had no real power, but he had a rep, and he must have represented to the House Ring the Chisum/McSween/Tunstall bunch. 

While you may or may not believe me, but I found Sallie Chisum's collection of pictures which include two very clearn pictures of the Kid...why'd she consider him so important to preserve and even to repair his pictures?  Why did Garrett think the Kid important enough to write a book about him.  I mean, who cared?

[MJN77]

 Please understand, I'm not fighting either, just discussing.

Works for me. I love a good discussion.
Frank's wife, not wanting Billy's name used under her roof says nothing about his fame or lack thereof. It just says she was NOT a fan of the fellow. She didn't like him.
Catron was a friend of L. G. Murphy, and by extention James Dolan. That was one reason Catron didn't like Billy. Another is the fact that after the war the Kid and a few buddies raided one of Dolan's cow camps and scattered the cattle in every direction. Unfortunatly, Dolan had sold his cattle to one Thomas B. Catron. Yup, it was Catron's cattle Billy ran off. The biggest reason, I think that Billy was persecuted was that Billy was the only regulator that stayed in the area and "fanned the flames" of the LCW. He harassed ex-Dolanites every chance he got. Mostly by stealing cattle. In other words, Billy was a pain in the lower back area to the "Ring". Billy was your typical 17-18 year old kid. He was arrogant and "invincible", so he stayed around to give the proverbial middle finger to the people that wronged him, while the other regulators fled to "safer relms".
During the LCW, the regulators spent a lot of time at the Chisum ranch. Billy was said to have gotten very close to Sallie (not necessarily physically). Billy even paid court to Sallie once. If Billy and Sallie were close that would explain why she would've kept/repaired his pictures. In the same vein, why would she keep photos of the other regulators?
I will say again, Garrett wrote the book to put PAT GARRETT in a good light. Garrett was recieving death threats and general greif about killing a "kid" in the dark without a "fair" chance to defend himself. He was even called a coward by some people. Garrett demonized the Kid in his book. Made him out to be a cold blooded killer of anyone that looked at him. Neither Garrett nor Upson knew anything about the Kid before Garrett became sherrif, so they made it up. The book was to paint the Kid as the "antichrist" and Garrett as the "hero". Nothing more. Oh, and to make a buck off of Billy's corpse. The book was a failure in sales. I ask you, if Billy was so famous why was Garrett's book a failure?
None of this means the Kid was famous at the time. These were people that personally knew him or were personally effected by him.
Dead I, as I said I enjoy the discussion.

[Dead I]

I don't think that Billy was arrogant.  He was, rather sort of quiet and shy.  He was known to be very polite to older folks and kind to women.  I doubt that he swore around them.  He is almost always described by women as having "boyish good looks".  While shy and polite he loved being on stage.  It happens.  He also liked to sing and dance and have a good time.  I think he was a thrill seeker and liked being with a group of men riding hard and getting into mischief.  Sallie Chisum said that when he was with her he was "always in the pink."..... Actually she said, "He was always in the pink when he was with me."  She records in her diary that they went riding together and sat on her uncles porch between dances to cool off.  I think Billy though he was "getting somewhere" with Sallie, but she had over plans.  She married William Robert a year and a half before Billy was killed.  So even if they danced together Sallie was never serious about their relationship.  However, she did save his pictures.  She also saved those of her family and the other Regulators.  She even saved an image of Olinger, Brady and Mason.

I think the Kid was very well known in and around Lincoln.  I think he was loved by the Hispanic peoples and he liked them too.  I know that Frank and George Coe missed him after he was gone.  Frank always hoped that he had survived.  I know this from talking with Nellie Ruth Jones, Frank's granddaughter.

I also think that after the Kid's death that the locals breathed a sigh of relief.  The kid always brought trouble alone with him.  While he was a million laughs he was also quick with a gun.  He didn't think twice about unleashing that thing and shooting to kill.  Quick action was a requirement for survival in that long ago era. 

[Buck Stinson]

Guess we're not talkin' about "The Kids" '73 anymore, are we.

[Dead I]

Guess we're not talkin' about "The Kids" '73 anymore, are we.

I don't know, I guess; how to discuss the gun with out discussing the kid too.