Billy the Kid's 1873 Winchester

[Dead I]

Does anyone know if Billy The Kid's rifle sported a round or Oct. barrel? The pic that I have looks like it may have been the carbine style round barrel. Anyone know for sure?

Billy owned several guns.  We see the holstered Model P in his famous picture. He is also  holding a first model 73 carbine that was made in .44 WCF.  He also used a half oct barrel '73 that was also a 44 and that rifle is on display in the Ruidoso River Museum in Ruidoso.  It has been cut down just where the round barrel started and a new sight was attached.  There is a photo of Billy holding that very rifle (most likely). I believe that Garrett confiscated that rifle when the kid was killed.  It was cut down and used as a child's plaything for years and today it does not function.

Mark Graham writes that Billy stole a Colt Lightening from the store in Anton Chico.  It was also confiscated by Garrett, this time when the kid was captured at Stinking Springs...this again from Graham.  As the story goes the Kid was loaned a Colt Thunderer a few months before he was killed.

What is supposed to be Garrett's gold star and a gold plated Lightening (thunderer?) are also on display in the museum in Ruidoso.   

[Dead I]

I have heard there is dought that the photo is actuly Billy the Kid any one have more information on that story

It's a pretty sure bet that the picture that we all know of Billy is indeed the desperado.  It was most likely taken outside Beaver Smith's saloon in Fort Sumner in the fall of 1879.  He his wearing what appears to be a borrowed sweater, since it looks about two sizes too large.  Some say you can see a "PM" written on a lable.  Maybe for Pete Maxwell.  Did the kid cop a sweater from him?

Paulita Maxwell identified that photo.  She said she did not like it because it "does not do him justice".  He certainly looks like an idiot.  I have seen pictures of him that match that photo and show him as a nice looking young fellow.  He was disarmingly youthful looking. 

[Dead I]

Thanks. Looks like the round barrel to me.

On display in the BTK Museum at Fort Sumner you'll see a '73 carbine that they'll tell you was Billy's. It has a round barrel.  Trouble is they hide the serial number.  I know a fellow who has seen the S# and he says it's too late and that the rifle is a second model.  Billy's would have been a first (no sliding breach cover).

[Dead I]

Thanks for the good scan, I have never seen one with this much detail. 

Every time I see that picture I'm struck by how down right homely he was.  Narrow sloped shoulders (heck his hips are wider than his shoulders) and a face that looks like he got beat with the ugly stick.  A far far cry from all the actors who have played him. 

Still, its an interesting picture.  He is wearing a shield front shirt under his vest and what appears to be a cardigan sweater over the vest!!   It does not have a collar and you can see what appear to be knitting rows in both the shoulders and the arms.  The button strip (don't know what the actual term is) looks like its reinforced with cloth (which is common on cardigans).  Sweaters are highly under-utilized in the reenacting field.  I wear a hand knit Irish wool sweater in cool weather but I never thought of a cardigan.  I'll have to keep my eye out for one now. 

Billy's shirt has an anchor embroidered or printed on the front.  The sweater is indeed a cardigan.  Some think his hat is an old top hat that he's punched down on one side and then plopped on his head.  He appears to be to be hamming for the camera.  He kid kind of slid his head back into the neck brace that they used when taking tintypes which causes his neck to look thicker than it really was.  He has allowed his mouth to fall open to revel his buck teeth.  If you look closely you can see are really kind of twisted. 

[Dead I]

Has anyone got the information how the photo was authenticated

I think it came from Deluvina Maxwell, the Navajo slave who worked for the Maxwell's in Fort Sumner.  She worshiped the kid.  Paulita, who was about the marry Billy said it was he, so it probably was/is.  The picture was lost. I was told it turned black after being shown under too much light.

In 1986 a tintype was found within the things of the Upham family, who were related to the Dedricks, Dan and Mose, who knew the Kid.  Dan fought alongside him.  The Dedrick brothers ran a stable at White Oaks and they were probably involved in a counterfeiting scheme, who some think the Kid was tied up in.

The new picture, identical to the old destroyed one is a tintype.  It was recently purchased by Bob McCubbin for approx. $300K.

[Dead I]

i read the kid was armed and standing by his bed , i no for a fact garrett was scared of billy , so shoting him when he was asleep could be right, anyway it but garrett in the history books , a coward or a hero which is it?

Garrett was hard nosed and a killer.  He shot on sight and from hiding Tom O'Folliard and Charlie Bowdre.  He said he thought he was shooting at the Kid.  He was close to them and shot them probably with a 45/60 76 Winchester.  I agree that he was scared spitless of the Kid.  He knew that Billy'd make the decision to draw and kill instantly if given the chance, and he also knew that Billy was gunning for him and Barney Mason.  

While there are several tales of how the Kid met his end, Garrett probably shot him while Garrettl was sitting at the head of Pete Maxwell's bed.  Garrett had awakened him to ask him if he knew where the Kid was.  At that  moment the kid, who had noticed some strange men standing on the porch entered the room to ask Maxwell if he knew "who those guys are".  Garrett said he recognized the Kid's voice and shot him.

[Dead I]

I have a strange story to relate.  Three years ago I found Sallie Chisum's person collection of tintypes.  There are nearly 80 all told.  They are mostly tintypes, but her German relatives are CDV's.  Most of the images are of her family, but I have most of the Regulators too.

After I found them, I had to find where they came from.  I located Sallie Chisum's family who live not too far from me.  They had moved here after Sallie's brother Walter Pitzer died.  I visited the family, who are still ranchers in a big way, and they had hundreds of Chisum artifacts and they recalled my pictures and know why and how they were sold. 

Many people don't believe me, and that's okay. It is a beyond amazing find after all.  If any of you out there would like to see some just email me at stepmccarty@q.com and I'll send some to you. Just tell me who you want to see.  All free, I'm not trying to sell anything, or put forward a cause.  If you are interested just ask.

Dead I

[Stillwater]

I have a strange story to relate.  Three years ago I found Sallie Chisum's person collection of tintypes.  There are nearly 80 all told.  They are mostly tintypes, but her German relatives are CDV's.  Most of the images are of her family, but I have most of the Regulators too.

After I found them, I had to find where they came from.  I located Sallie Chisum's family who live not too far from me.  They had moved here after Sallie's brother Walter Pitzer died.  I visited the family, who are still ranchers in a big way, and they had hundreds of Chisum artifacts and they recalled my pictures and know why and how they were sold. 

Many people don't believe me, and that's okay. It is a beyond amazing find after all.  If any of you out there would like to see some just email me at stepmccarty@q.com and I'll send some to you. Just tell me who you want to see.  All free, I'm not trying to sell anything, or put forward a cause.  If you are interested just ask.

Dead I

Email sent...

Bill

[Dead I]

and as time marches on the less chance we will no the truth, think we gota except it was him that was shot by pat garrett, he you the kid well, so sure im he knew who he  shot, and dont forget the kid  wasnt as famous as he is now , so garrett had no reason to  be untruth full about what happened

When Garrett plugged the Kid he was already getting famous.  Dime novels had already been printed.  He was well known in the region and he was feared by his enemies.  He was also the only member of the Chisum/McSween/Tunstall crowd to ever suffer the sting of the law.  While both Frank and George Coe had some legal problems in 1884 neither was convicted.

The Kid was known by the Governor and the Lincoln County War was known by president Garfield, maybe he knew the Kid's name as well. Today it's considered that no single American is better known the world over than Billy the Kid.  He would have fallen over with glee if he knew this!

[Dead I]

Most of the copies of that picture have been worked over, this is what the original looks like:



And a close up, arrow points to the loading port, showing the picture is reversed:

Just so you know, the original of this picture is about three inches high and about two inches wide.  It is very small. I have tintypes of Dan Dedrick and Sheriff Brady that are about this size.  The image of Dedrick is in this condition too.

[Buck Stinson]

The Winchester carbine in the "Billy" photo could be a first model or a second model.   If the serial number is known, it would be a cinch to figure out.  I guess I don't understand why the number seems to be a secret.  ALL Winchester carbines, no matter what model, had round barrels.  ALL model 1873 carbines and rifles had dust covers, except for a very few late production first model "rifles only" in the 27,200 to 28,000 serial range.   These guns are referred to by collectors as "open tops".  It is impossible to tell from the photo, if Billy is holding a first or second model.  And yes, it could easily be a second model if the photo was taken in 1879 or later. 

[Herbert]

strange in that photo he looks younger and not as ugly,I gess it got worse the more it was touched up

[Stillwater]

The Winchester carbine in the "Billy" photo could be a first model or a second model.   If the serial number is known, it would be a cinch to figure out.  I guess I don't understand why the number seems to be a secret.  ALL Winchester carbines, no matter what model, had round barrels.  ALL model 1873 carbines and rifles had dust covers, except for a very few late production first model "rifles only" in the 27,200 to 28,000 serial range.   These guns are referred to by collectors as "open tops".  It is impossible to tell from the photo, if Billy is holding a first or second model.  And yes, it could easily be a second model if the photo was taken in 1879 or later. 

I don't know about whether the rifle is an early, or late,r rifle. If you look at the blow up of the rifle, there is an object on the top of the receiver that could possibly be a dustcover, although it isn't very plain.

Bill

[Stillwater]

i read the kid was armed and standing by his bed , i no for a fact garrett was scared of billy , so shoting him when he was asleep could be right, anyway it but garrett in the history books , a coward or a hero which is it?

You know for a fact...? How do you know for a fact, that Garret was scared silly?

Since you obviously weren't there, could you please explain that to me?

Bill

[Herbert]

Just so you know, the original of this picture is about three inches high and about two inches wide.  It is very small. I have tintypes of Dan Dedrick and Sheriff Brady that are about this size.  The image of Dedrick is in this condition too.

I recived your photos of the regulators,thank you ,would it be posible to post a side by side comparison of the Sallie Chisum photo of the kid and the cleaned up one shown

[Dead I]

The Winchester carbine in the "Billy" photo could be a first model or a second model.   If the serial number is known, it would be a cinch to figure out.  I guess I don't understand why the number seems to be a secret.  ALL Winchester carbines, no matter what model, had round barrels.  ALL model 1873 carbines and rifles had dust covers, except for a very few late production first model "rifles only" in the 27,200 to 28,000 serial range.   These guns are referred to by collectors as "open tops".  It is impossible to tell from the photo, if Billy is holding a first or second model.  And yes, it could easily be a second model if the photo was taken in 1879 or later. 

A serious Winchester collector told me that first model 73's didn't have the dust cover.  Now I've heard they did and they didn't buy men who sound knowledgeable to me.  I've seen 73's without dust covers and without the little track they they road along behing the breech.  It appears to me that Billy's carbine doesn't have that little track. 

I am NOT a Winchester expert.  I've seen that Winchester in the museum in Fort Sumner many times and it is displayed in such a way that you cannot see the S#.

[Dead I]

You know for a fact...? How do you know for a fact, that Garret was scared silly?

Since you obviously weren't there, could you please explain that to me?

Bill

I believe that Garrett was afraid of the Kid because he acted like a man who was.  As an example he shot and killed Tom Folliard thinking it was the kid.  He said he called "Hands up" or something like that, but he took aim and shot him through the chest from maybe 20 feet.  He didn't take time to insure that it was Billy before he shot.  I think because he didn't want the kid to have time to draw and shoot.  When he killed Bowdre he shot fast too, thinking Charlie was the Kid.  It seems to me that Garrett acted as a man who was either frightened of the kid, or who respected his abilities.

[MJN77]

I believe that Garrett was afraid of the Kid because he acted like a man who was.  As an example he shot and killed Tom Folliard thinking it was the kid.  He said he called "Hands up" or something like that, but he took aim and shot him through the chest from maybe 20 feet.  He didn't take time to insure that it was Billy before he shot.  I think because he didn't want the kid to have time to draw and shoot.  When he killed Bowdre he shot fast too, thinking Charlie was the Kid.  It seems to me that Garrett acted as a man who was either frightened of the kid, or who respected his abilities.

Or maybe he wanted to go home to his wife. Would you give a chance to anyone that you knew to be armed? Especially if they were known to be shooters? Tom O'Folliard was a regulator and participated in the 5 day battle for Lincoln, Bowdrie was a regulator and the one that killed "Buckshot" Roberts, Dave Rudabaugh was a known killer and Billy the Kid, of course had killed a few. I don't think it was just Billy that made Garrett shoot. In fact, Billy was considered nothing more than a "two bit cattle rustler". It was Hollywood that made him a legend. Billy was also number 11 on the New Mexico wanted list. If not for his spectacular escape from jail on April 28, 1881 and killing his guards, few people would probably even know about him. I think it was more a desire to survive that made ol' Pat pull the trigger.

[Dead I]

I recived your photos of the regulators,thank you ,would it be posible to post a side by side comparison of the Sallie Chisum photo of the kid and the cleaned up one shown

I am the ultimate computer retard.  I can show the pictures side by side, but they come out very small. I know it's just a few key strokes, but which ones?  I'll send you the known Kid (Upham photo) and my kid side by side so you can match'em up.  They are, at least to me, obviously the same young fellow.

Sallie matches up even better with known pictures.  I have many of her, from toddler to young teenager to adult and old lady.  She collected a bunch of pictures of herself.  I also have her elder sister, several of her.  She died in 1973.  Her name was Mary Branch Chisum, and as far as I know there are no other pictures of her, but mine must be her because she and Sallie, who I am positive of, share clothing and pose.

[Dead I]

Or maybe he wanted to go home to his wife. Would you give a chance to anyone that you knew to be armed? Especially if they were known to be shooters? Tom O'Folliard was a regulator and participated in the 5 day battle for Lincoln, Bowdrie was a regulator and the one that killed "Buckshot" Roberts, Dave Rudabaugh was a known killer and Billy the Kid, of course had killed a few. I don't think it was just Billy that made Garrett shoot. In fact, Billy was considered nothing more than a "two bit cattle rustler". It was Hollywood that made him a legend. Billy was also number 11 on the New Mexico wanted list. If not for his spectacular escape from jail on April 28, 1881 and killing his guards, few people would probably even know about him. I think it was more a desire to survive that made ol' Pat pull the trigger.

Billy was know in his day all over the nation and in Europe.  The story of  his death was carried in papers in both coasts and the president was aware of the Lincoln County War.  The governor made a special effort to meet the Kid, so he was known.  He was,  however; generally forgotten until "The Saga of..." was published in 1926.  Indeed Hollywood made him more famous.  In his time the Kid was feared, and I believe he rather liked the fame/acclaim.  He finally tired of the danger and planned to go to Mexico, but tool late.