Billy the Kid's 1873 Winchester

[Rube Burrows]

Does anyone know if Billy The Kid's rifle sported a round or Oct. barrel? The pic that I have looks like it may have been the carbine style round barrel. Anyone know for sure?

[Delmonico]

Most of the copies of that picture have been worked over, this is what the original looks like:



And a close up, arrow points to the loading port, showing the picture is reversed:

[Rube Burrows]

Thanks. Looks like the round barrel to me.

[Skeeter Lewis]

Is that holster a slim jim or a Mexican loop? When I've seen repros of it, it's generally the latter, but I'm not sure that's right...

[Rube Burrows]

Is that holster a slim jim or a Mexican loop? When I've seen repros of it, it's generally the latter, but I'm not sure that's right...

I had always heard it was the Mexican Loop.

[Roscoe Coles]

Thanks for the good scan, I have never seen one with this much detail. 

Every time I see that picture I'm struck by how down right homely he was.  Narrow sloped shoulders (heck his hips are wider than his shoulders) and a face that looks like he got beat with the ugly stick.  A far far cry from all the actors who have played him. 

Still, its an interesting picture.  He is wearing a shield front shirt under his vest and what appears to be a cardigan sweater over the vest!!   It does not have a collar and you can see what appear to be knitting rows in both the shoulders and the arms.  The button strip (don't know what the actual term is) looks like its reinforced with cloth (which is common on cardigans).  Sweaters are highly under-utilized in the reenacting field.  I wear a hand knit Irish wool sweater in cool weather but I never thought of a cardigan.  I'll have to keep my eye out for one now. 

[Stillwater]

From looking at the picture, it looks like he is missing one, or two joints, from the index finger on his left hand. The hand holding the rifle.

Bill

[Delmonico]

From looking at the picture, it looks like he is missing one, or two joints, from the index finger on his left hand. The hand holding the rifle.

Bill

Looks to me like he has just tucked it into the hand.

[Stillwater]

Looks to me like he has just tucked it into the hand.

Yes, that is what it looks like to me now...

Bill

[rebsr52339]

The "73" in the "Billy the Kid Museum" is a round bbl and the scabbard is with it. Page 93, Western Memorabilia and Collectables. His silver inlaid wrapped spurs are there also.

[Herbert]

I have heard there is dought that the photo is actuly Billy the Kid any one have more information on that story

[Delmonico]

I have heard there is dought that the photo is actuly Billy the Kid any one have more information on that story

Yep. some say it is, some say it ain't, no one has ever proved either way.

[Buck Stinson]

No mater who is pictured in this photo, the gun is most definately and 1873 Winchester saddle ring carbine.  Barrels on all standard '73 carbines are 20" and ALWAYS  round.

[rebsr52339]

To add to what Buck said and to clarify something, the photo of the saddle ring 73 in the Kid Museum is labeled an 1866. Clearly it is not. His chaps are also in the museum and they are a dark color. I have a question about the chaps as they are a dark angora. Not that I dough they are his. I saw a photo, a large one in the late 70s I believe, at the YO Ranch in Kerrville Tx. Charley used to have a couple of mini gun/bowie knife shows at the ranch. It was there that I met "Jarret Garrett"(spelling). I believe he was the adapted son of Pat Garrett. He was in his 70s at the time. A friend of mine from NJ was there and he was negotiating buying a gold badge and the SAA Pat used to kill the kid. He confirmed that the photo was of his father and the passe who captured the kid. The Kid was identified as being on the far right of the photo.  As I recall both photos of the kid looked very much alike. The chaps the kid had on "I believe" were of a lighter color. Now it may be the light shinning on them, the negative changing the tone of the color when produced. I don't know. Don't know where the photo got off to either. Should be in somebody's collection. BTW his son told us how the capture/killing went down. Interesting.

[Buck Stinson]

I would find it hard to believe that the angora chaps you mentioned, belonged to Billy The Kid.  I've collected vintage cowboy gear most of my life and have over 1000 premium pieces in my collection.  I have never seen a pair of angora chaps from the early to mid 1880 period.   I have original saddle shop catalogs and catalog photo cards from all over the west and southwest, dating back to 1879 and NONE of them show or list angora chaps, prior to 1890, give or take a year.  Chaps of the 1875 to 1890 period were leather shotguns, made with or without fringe and conchas.  Earlier chaps had a straight cut waist belt, while later variations had a curved drop down cut to the laced center of the belt.  As pointed out by the mislabeled firearm, museums are notorious for not knowing or understanding what they have.  I was once at the Buffalo Bill Historic Center in Cody, looking at a display which included what was said to be one of Buffalo Bills saddles.  It was displayed against a wall with a rope barrier in front of it.  The sign stated that this early Sam Stagg rigged half seat saddle had been made for Cody by F. A. Meanea in Cheyenne.  Although the saddle was close enough to touch, I could not see a makers cartouche.   It was a Cheyenne saddle, but I knew it wasn't made by Meanea. Behind the cantle was laced a pair of small saddle pockets.  I knew the makers cartouche was hidden under the saddle pockets, so I lifted up the one closest to me and there is was... J. S. Collins, Maker, Cheyenne, W. T.  

[rebsr52339]

Buck, I agree that some Museums are very lax in verifying the documentation they get from donors, sales, auctions etc. Privet collectors are usually much better at verifying the Provence of an item and I would trust a "collector" before a Museum in a disputed item.  I have seen outright fakes in Bowie Knives in the collections of a couple of well known museums. Once when this was pointed out, very tactfully, the response was "they would not put out an authentic one as they were too expensive". Lame excuse. I am not knocking Museums, but in their enthusiasm to display, they sometimes err in judgment. The photo I saw of the person identified as the "Kid" was wearing what "looked" like an off colored chap. As you state they would probably have been leather with no "wool" on them. The photo I "believe" was taken in 1880 at the time of his capture. I will ask Stan in N.J. if he recollects where that photo ended up at. You were very fortunate to be able to verify the saddle maker. Most museums will not let any visitor get that close. Good job.

[Herbert]

I have seen onother photo that is sopose to be of Billy ,it does not apear to be the same person as the one with the winchester that is most often put up as Billy the kid ,has anyone seen other photos that are supose to be Billy and how do they conpare for match up, i have read descriptions of Billys looks and they dont seem to match the photo,maybe she was being kind

[Delmonico]

I have seen onother photo that is sopose to be of Billy ,it does not apear to be the same person as the one with the winchester that is most often put up as Billy the kid ,has anyone seen other photos that are supose to be Billy and how do they conpare for match up, i have read descriptions of Billys looks and they dont seem to match the photo,maybe she was being kind

I may have it in my files somewhere, let me see.

[Grizzly Adams]

The 1873 Carbine in the museum is not Billy's carbine.  Here in NM we seem to have Billy's carbine hanging on a number of walls!

[Skeeter Lewis]

Hi, Herbert. Shotgun Steve posted a picture of 'Billy the Kid' and I then ran down this blow-up of it. There was a good, if heated, discussion about it on NCOWS. Make up your own mind. Personally, I'm a believer. I think that is Pat Garrett on the left and Billy on the right with a gun held to his head. But who knows?
Keep scrolling down for the blow-up.

http://www.angelfire.com/nm/boybanditking/pageStinkingSprings.html