Billy the Kid's 1873 Winchester

[Dead I]

Is it "Beckwith" or "Beckworth"?  Jeeze I guess I've got to look it up.

Just looked it up, the name was Beckwith. 

I've never been able to get John Jones straightened out.  Was he an ally of the Kid or not?  I see that when the kid came to the Jones ranch that he and John Jones were pals, shooting at cans and whatnot.  Then I read that John Jones...the son of Ma'am and Haskel Jones shot at the Kid when he ran from the burning McSween house.  Then he was murdered by Bob Olinger which some think is why Billy killed Olinger in such a brutal manner.

Can anyone out there shed some light on John Jones for me?  Or were there two of them?  How could he have been a pal of the Kid and still have shot at him as he ran from the burning house in Lincoln?

[MJN77]

Jones was part of the Seven Rivers crowd of horse theives and killers. They were allied with the Dolan side. Before the LCW, Billy was "in" with the Seven Rivers crowd. (he was part of Jesse Even's gang) When the "war" started, Billy was on the other side. Ollinger killed Jones because Jones killed a friend of Bob's. Billy shot Ollinger because Billy wanted to escape from jail and Bob would've probably tried to stop him. You say "such a brutal manner", how can you shoot someone in a non- brutal manner? Billy shot him in the face, neck, and chest with both barrels of his own 10 guage whitney shotgun, the same shotgun Ollinger himself taunted the Kid with. He would tell the Kid that in order to save himself from the hangman, all he had to do was make a break for it and he (Ollinger) would shoot him with that shotgun. He also would poke Billy in the ribs with the muzzle and laugh at him. I think Billy had other reasons to shoot ol' Bob in the face.

[Dead I]

Jones was part of the Seven Rivers crowd of horse theives and killers. They were allied with the Dolan side. Before the LCW, Billy was "in" with the Seven Rivers crowd. (he was part of Jesse Even's gang) When the "war" started, Billy was on the other side. Ollinger killed Jones because Jones killed a friend of Bob's. Billy shot Ollinger because Billy wanted to escape from jail and Bob would've probably tried to stop him. You say "such a brutal manner", how can you shoot someone in a non- brutal manner? Billy shot him in the face, neck, and chest with both barrels of his own 10 guage whitney shotgun, the same shotgun Ollinger himself taunted the Kid with. He would tell the Kid that in order to save himself from the hangman, all he had to do was make a break for it and he (Ollinger) would shoot him with that shotgun. He also would poke Billy in the ribs with the muzzle and laugh at him. I think Billy had other reasons to shoot ol' Bob in the face.

I cannot disagree with anything you've said above.  I read someplace that Billy was angered by how Olinger murdered Jones. Having a buddy who was lying on a cot grab hold of Jone's hand and not let go. Olinger walked up behind him and shot him twice in the back.  One round went threw and threw and lodged on the thigh of the fellow in the bed.

[Dead I]

Here is a picture of Billy and Deluvina taken, I believe, soon before his death.  Note the rifle he is holding.  It is a half oct half round barreled 73 Winchester.  This is probably the same rifle that is on display in the Ruidoso River Museum in Ruidoso.  That gun is labeled as Billy's. It has been cut just where the barrel turned round and a new sight affixed.  There is provenance for this picture.

[Dead I]

The picture of the Kid that I've posted answers a lot of questions about him.  We know that Deluvina wasn't very tall and nor was Billy. Here we see evidence of his size.  He is "well formed" and rather handsome.  I think the rifle probably belonged to Pete Maxwell and Billy "borrowed" it.  Since Will Chisum said, "If the kid wanted anything, he just took it."  We can also see  his hands, but not his feet since he is standing in tall grass, but his hands do look rather thin to me. Maybe he could "slip" his handcuffs.

This picture was found in the town where the photographer lived who took many of the pictures of the Chisum family and the Regulators and many of  his tintypes are embossed with his name and address. This one does not have a frame and is therefore not named but it's location is appropriate for the photographer. 

[Dead I]

Just for fun, here is a picture of John Jones.  It's unknown. On the reverse is written, "John J."  I've matched to another picture of Jones that is well known.  I've posted that one too. I think they are reversed one to the other since mine is still "as in tintype and therefore a mirror image. I think the other has been fllip flopped. You can match them right down to the little pencil thin beard and light goatee.  Look closely, you can see it. IMO they are the same fellow.

[Rube Burrows]

You guys are full of knowledge and I find it very interesting reading all of your posts.

[MJN77]

Here is a picture of Billy and Deluvina taken, I believe, soon before his death.  Note the rifle he is holding.  It is a half oct half round barreled 73 Winchester.  This is probably the same rifle that is on display in the Ruidoso River Museum in Ruidoso.  That gun is labeled as Billy's. It has been cut just where the barrel turned round and a new sight affixed.  There is provenance for this picture.

What provenance exactly? (not sarcastic) There is only one KNOWN photo of the Kid, so any others are open to speculation. Looking at the known pic, it could very well be the Kid as there is a resemblance.

The Kid didn't slip his cuffs. Eyewitnesses to the escape said he spent an hour talking to the town folk after he shot his guards, still wearing his handcuffs. I do not figure he would've put them back on. Godfry Gauss, an old man the Kid had known when Gauss was Tunstall's cook, helped Billy break the chain between his ankle shackles with a pickax but not the one on his wrist.

[MJN77]

You guys are full of knowledge and I find it very interesting reading all of your posts.

Thank you much. It's nice to know we're entertaining.

[Dead I]

While there are several stories of how the kid got free from the Lincoln County Courthouse, one is that he slipped his handcuffs and clubed Bell over the head.  Stunned the two men fought on the stairway and somehow the kid got Bell's gun and plugged  him.  I think that the kid then called to Gauss to toss him a pick, which he used to break the chain on  his leg irons.  So I suspect that he slipped  his cuffs and then cut the leg iron chains. 

[Dead I]

That picture is the Kid.  I have many of the "Regulaters" that are not generally known.  Most were taken by George W. Morgan who lived in Viroqua, Wis.  He traveled to warmer climates during the long Wisconsin winters.  One could not make Ferrotypes in sub-zero weather. He took pictures of the Chisum family, Sallie Chisum's friends and most of the Regulators.  The picture in question was found in Morgan's home and was probably taken by him.  If so that is the Kid.  Here is Frank Coe.

[Dead I]

I have a great many newly discovered pictures taken of the Chisum family and of Sallie Chisum's friends.  I foung them within a group that Sallie gave to her brother's sister.  They were stored in her attic and forgotten.  After she died they were sold and ended up in a little store, where I found them.  Sallie's relatives live close to me and they recall when and  how the collection was sold. 

The picture that I posted of Billy and Deluvina is not within that group.  But it was found where the photographer lived.  There I found a picture of J.J. Dolan.  Here, I'll post it.

Here's Olinger.  This was found within Sallie's collection:

Yes, I know nothing new has been found for a long time with respect to images of the Kid, but here is some new stuff.  Interesting

[Dead I]

I have seen onother photo that is sopose to be of Billy ,it does not apear to be the same person as the one with the winchester that is most often put up as Billy the kid ,has anyone seen other photos that are supose to be Billy and how do they conpare for match up, i have read descriptions of Billys looks and they dont seem to match the photo,maybe she was being kind

I have several  pictures of Billy and he was a nice looking  young fellow.  I'll post one.

This photo is "as in tintype" so it's a mirror image.  Billy's broken eyebrow was his right, his left was arched.  This tintype dates March 1878 so he is a little  younger than he shows in the famous Upham photo.

[Dead I]

Something weird happened to the Dolan picture. Here, I'll try again to post it.


Yeah, that's J.J.  You can match it with others.  He had only one coat. 

[MJN77]

While there are several stories of how the kid got free from the Lincoln County Courthouse, one is that he slipped his handcuffs and clubed Bell over the head.  Stunned the two men fought on the stairway and somehow the kid got Bell's gun and plugged  him.  I think that the kid then called to Gauss to toss him a pick, which he used to break the chain on  his leg irons.  So I suspect that he slipped  his cuffs and then cut the leg iron chains. 

I have heard that version too, but as I said read eyewitness accounts of his escape. He spent an hour walking back and forth on the balcony of the courthouse, talking to the crowd that gathered. They say he still had on his cuffs. He did not have to "slip his cuffs" to clobber Bell with them. Gauss had to help the Kid break the chain on his leg irons. If you read four diffirent books about the Kid, you will get four different versions of his escape, life etc......from the writers. That's why I like first hand accounts from people that were there. While you can't say all of them are the God's honest truth.....you can't totally discount them either.
Interesting pics.

[Will Ketchum]

I have heard that version too, but as I said read eyewitness accounts of his escape. He spent an hour walking back and forth on the balcony of the courthouse, talking to the crowd that gathered. They say he still had on his cuffs. He did not have to "slip his cuffs" to clobber Bell with them. Gauss had to help the Kid break the chain on his leg irons. If you read four diffirent books about the Kid, you will get four different versions of his escape, life etc......from the writers. That's why I like first hand accounts from people that were there. While you can't say all of them are the God's honest truth.....you can't totally discount them either.
Interesting pics.

It could be possible that the people who commented on Billy's cuffs were just referring to them dangling from one hand.  He didn't have to slip both cuffs to gain use of his hands.  Just a thought, that way you both are correct.

Will Ketchum

[Stillwater]

I have heard that version too, but as I said read eyewitness accounts of his escape. He spent an hour walking back and forth on the balcony of the courthouse, talking to the crowd that gathered. They say he still had on his cuffs. He did not have to "slip his cuffs" to clobber Bell with them. Gauss had to help the Kid break the chain on his leg irons. If you read four diffirent books about the Kid, you will get four different versions of his escape, life etc......from the writers. That's why I like first hand accounts from people that were there. While you can't say all of them are the God's honest truth.....you can't totally discount them either.
Interesting pics.

If you have ten people watching an incident take place, you can get up to ten different versions of how the incident happened...

Reading many different accounts of an incident will give you a felt awareness, on how the incident might have happened. That felt awareness will generally be close to the actual dynamics of the incident.

Dead I knows this about John Marmaduke Beckwith and Robert Beckwith... They are direct cousins of mine. Their father was an older brother to my grandfather, on my mothers side.

I have thought about taking a couple of random rifle shots at Dead I, a McCarty, just to square things up a little... 

Bill

[Dead I]

It could be possible that the people who commented on Billy's cuffs were just referring to them dangling from one hand.  He didn't have to slip both cuffs to gain use of his hands.  Just a thought, that way you both are correct.

Will Ketchum

I am wondering the same thing.  There is a story that Billy slipped his hand from a cuff and bashed Bell over the head with it.  If this happened he would not have had time to slip both hands, since Bell would be more likely to  notice him fooling around underneath the card table.  

[Dead I]

Hi, Herbert. Shotgun Steve posted a picture of 'Billy the Kid' and I then ran down this blow-up of it. There was a good, if heated, discussion about it on NCOWS. Make up your own mind. Personally, I'm a believer. I think that is Pat Garrett on the left and Billy on the right with a gun held to his head. But who knows?
Keep scrolling down for the blow-up.

http://www.angelfire.com/nm/boybanditking/pageStinkingSprings.html

Great pictures of the house at Stinking Springs.  I don't buy the group picture.  I too have heard the debate over it. 

[Dead I]

I have heard there is dought that the photo is actuly Billy the Kid any one have more information on that story

As the story goes the Upham photo was shown to Paulita and I think Deluvina and both said it was the kid.  They didn't like it however. I think it was Paulita who said, "It doesn't do  him justice".  He was better looking than he shows in that picture she said.  The Kid was known as a "snappy dresser" according to friends.  George Coe said, "If there was a clean shirt in town it was on Billy's back".  In the Upham picture I think that the Kid has just ridden in from the prairie, saw the camera and always wanting to create a joke, he went over, jammed a top hat on his head, after first jamming down one side of it and hammed for the camera. The photo ended up in Dan Dedrick's family where it was found in 1986.  I believe R.G. McCubbin of Santa Fe owns it today.

I read that the original of the earlier and nearly identical picture has been destroyed.  "It's turned black".