Double Butt Forward Rule?

[WaddWatsonEllis]

I turned my holsters around to double strong side because at one time the SASS Shooter's Manual said that the 'double butt forward' rig was a no-no.

A friend and fellow member told me that there was no such anti 'double butt forward' rig in the manual.

So I looked for it under 'Holsters' and could not find any reference to a 'double butt forward' holster rig.

Has the rule been changed?

Can I wear my holsters as they were designed as long as I don't go out of my 170 degree rule?

I know I am going to have to work with my ROIs, and would like a better reference than 'my friend said so'.

If the reg is still in the books, can anyone tell me where to find it?

Thank Y'all in advance for your assistance!

[Daniel Nighteyes]

Wearing your holsters butt-forward is completely legal, proper, and all that. That's how I've worn and used mine for several years now.  I actually started doing that because of some long-standing shoulder problems; now I'm just as fast and just as safe as I could be wearing them "regular".  [And its a lot more stylish... ]


This next one is at a Western 3-Gun match, where moving while firing is not only legal, but often necessary



Here's a demonstration video I did for a friend some time back.  Because of the specific needs, I am over-emphasizing my hand movements at the beginning of the draw.  Still, you can see that it is just as safe as a "regular" draw.  I often shoot Double-Duelist, pulling right pistol with right hand, and left pistol with left hand.  Sometimes I shoot plain ol' Duelist, and with these straight-hang holsters I can do the cross-draw without having to do the dance.

http://s10.photobucket.com/albums/a124/danielnighteyes/CAS%20Pictures/?action=view&current=NighteyesReverseDrawDemo.flv

What is NOT SASS-legal is to shoot Gunfighter with butt-forward holsters.

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Almost as soon as I posted this, Dalton Masterson found the fly in the ointment. Double butt forward is legal in everything but gunfighter. And since I shoot senior gunfighter, that pretty much says it all ... sigh.

[Curley Cole]

I already started this post before I read your last post, so decided to go ahead and finish this one to show my double rig.

I think it is too bad that gunfighter can't do it since WBH was a premier gunfighter...

good shootin
curley

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Curly,

I agree wholeheartedly ...

Yet I can see how the ROI and anybody else near could be taken out by an overzealous double butt forward draw with the member's hand on the triggger ... so I can understand.

It's kind of like the military ... when dealing with safety, one has to work on the level of the worst case scenario ....

Oh well ... after a lifetime on very formal military ranges, SASS is a walk in the park ... I can put up with double strong side ... heck, in most ranges one can't even draw from a holster ... *S*

[Daniel Nighteyes]

I've got another video I made to demonstrate that a Gunfighter can do the double reverse draw safely.  Only problem is, its in a format that I can't get to work as a stand-alone file.  Once I get that corrected, I'll post it.

[Daniel Nighteyes]

Curley Cole,

First, what a GREAT outfit!  Second, with those holsters both angled as they are, how do you draw?  Double cross-draw was my first impression.

Regards,

-- Nighteyes

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Daniel,

Actually the draw is pro-170-degree rule and safe ...

I just pull the pistols out and back, then up and forward... and the barrels come out of the holsters facing downrange .... if the holsters were holding 4 1/2 inch barreled SAAs, it would be pretty easy. But with 7" barrelled Schofields, well that is another story ... *S*

[Curley Cole]

Daniel

First, thank you for the compliment, from you, I take that graciously but with PRIDE!  Actually I have been working on that concept for a good year or more...The hat has the USS scout pin. (crossed sabers, not the crossed arrows. I gave that one to GCR)
My scout look is to accompany my pards...Old Top and Cole Harbour. Funny too, I took one of the pix and framed it and put it on the wall, and right next to me is a scout from the mid 1800's old painting i framed some years back, and turns out my hat and basic look is almost identical....strange...

As for my drawing...I am lucky enough to be ambidextrous, so I draw crossdraw, but one gun at a time...and shoot the stage either right or left...

again, thanks for the kind words..
good shootin
curley

[Curley Cole]

Daniel
Me and some pards, I am sure you will recognize a few.
also my rig looks a little better since I lost about 30lb

good shootin
curley

[Daniel Nighteyes]

Daniel
Me and some pards, I am sure you will recognize a few.
also my rig looks a little better since I lost about 30lb

good shootin
curley

Yep, I've shot with a couple o' them fellers more'n once!    If you've never attended one of Lefty Longridge 's clinics, I can recommend them.  He helped me shave about 15 seconds off my time per stage.  And Sergeant Major O'Donnell is the pard I'm always "competing" with.  It is, of course, a very informal and friendly competition.

You must have lost that weight at the Deadwood Boys range, because I surely found it  

Wishing you and yours the very best of the Season,

-- Nighteyes

[Daniel Nighteyes]

.. if the holsters were holding 4 1/2 inch barreled SAAs, it would be pretty easy. But with 7" barrelled Schofields, well that is another story ... *S*

Yup.  In the pics and video I posted, note that I'm either shooting 8"1860  Richards-Mason conversions, or 8" Remington New Model Army pistols. My primary backup pistols have shorter barrels -- they're 7.5" 1851 Richards-Masons.  (I also have 5.5" barrels for the '51s, and a pair of 5.5" NMAs, but I almost never use them.)

When drawing, I pull the pistol straight up while exerting a little "forward" pressure.  That way, the barrel starts tracking downrange the moment the muzzle clears leather, but its upside down.  I wait until the pistol is nearly in line with the target before rotating it upright.  I do the same thing when I'm doing a crossdraw.

[Danny Bear Claw]

I too, like the double-butt-foward rigs.  That's the type of gun rig I bought for my brace of 38-40s.  I've been practising safe drawing with this rig.  I wonder if any clubs around here will put up with Wild Bill action?   

[Daniel Nighteyes]

I too, like the double-butt-foward rigs.  That's the type of gun rig I bought for my brace of 38-40s.  I've been practising safe drawing with this rig.  I wonder if any clubs around here will put up with Wild Bill action?  

Danny,

As long as you do it safely, and don't shoot Gunfighter, they have little to say about it from a rules standpoint.  Some RO's don't like it, at least right at first, because they're unfamiliar with it.  When I'm working with a new-to-me RO, I always tell him/her what I plan to do in advance, and offer to demonstrate.  To a person they've all watched me like a hungry hawk for the first couple of stages, then relaxed.  Shooting where I do, I've been RO-ed by some pretty top names in this game, too.

Anyone, or any club, who maintains that the reverse draw is illegal is doing so from an individual or club perspective.

Danny, if you (or anyone else for that matter) begin using the reverse draw, I'd love to sign you up for a truly special organization.  We're SoBAD (heh-heh-heh) -- the Society of Bass Ackward Duelists.  The roster contains nearly 50 names, more than a few of whom post here on CAS City.

I've finally found someone to work with, so we're gonna have membership pins and everything!!!

-- Nighteyes

[Curley Cole]

Would love to be part of that orginazation too...

curley

[Daniel Nighteyes]

Would love to be part of that orginazation too...

curley

Oops!  Thought you already were.  Say no more, amigo.  PM on the way.

[Dr. Bob]

Daniel,

I am shooting with an 1872 Open Top in an 1871 US Army Flap Holster.  I, of course have to reverse draw.  I'm shooting NCOWS Originals class which only uses 1 revolver.  Do I qualify??  I shoot duelist only.  With lots of boom and SMOKE!!!

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Don't know what the NCOWS rules are, but SASS seems to only worry about double butt forward in a double duelist situation....

[Dr. Bob]

It's OK in NCOWS!  I was asking about SoBAD!

[WaddWatsonEllis]

AAAAAH....