.45 LC converted new army

[Vinja]

hello guys, first post here and i apologize if this isnt the right area for this question or not. Ive been thinking of picking up the cimmaron 1858 new army replica but im curious if that gun was ever converted to .45 LC back in the old west? everything i find only mentions .46 rimfire so im wondering if it historically was rechambered to fire .45 at some point in time? thank you all in advance, this seemed like it would be the most knowledgeable forum on the subject.

[Major 2]

46 RF and 44 however the 44 was a heeled bullet and was in fact measured at .451 or 45.

there may have been a few smith converts to 45 Colt..but I don't believe the factory did.

[Stophel]

I have photos of one that was .45 Colt.  You can't see from the pictures, but I can imagine that the cylinder walls are PAPER thin.

[Vinja]

ah thank you all very much, i was simply curious on the historical accuracy on it since .45 seemed to be a very popular caliber back then. thanks again

edit: one more question, was the .44 it was chambered for the .44-40 used in the winchester 1873? im not very knowledgeable on these things yet but ive been really getting into the history of the old west latley

[Stophel]

As I understand it, Colt ran into some problems converting 1860 Army pistols.  The cyl. walls are super thin at the rear to begin with, and I think they had trouble with the bore-through cutting through the cylinder stop notches.

.44-40 (.44 WCF) is a bottleneck cartridge with a smaller bullet.  Would not work without sleeving everything.

The .44 Remington Centerfire APPARENTLY is interchangeable with .44 Colt, using a heel bullet. ? ? ? ?

[Daniel Nighteyes]

I have photos of one that was .45 Colt.  You can't see from the pictures, but I can imagine that the cylinder walls are PAPER thin.

That's a current problem as well.  The dimensions of the reproduction New Model Army revolvers are very close to the original, so creating SAFE 45 Colt conversion cylinders required some work-arounds.  Kirst solved it by only drilling five chambers in the cylinder.   R&D conversion cylinders have six chambers, but each is drilled on a slight diagonal.

[Vinja]

ok i can understand that, there is something about this revolver that calls to me and i cant find that much information so i apologize for asking so many questions. but on the cimarron website it states "Like the 1872 Open Top, these revolvers were not converted from a percussion model but instead were manufactured to fire a cartridge."

now does that mean that there specific 1858 replica wasnt converted from a percussion model, or does it mean remington at one point made ones specifically for metallic cartridges?

P.S: also would anyone know of any websites or books that would help me learn about the many different guns used in the west? this is starting to become yet another passion XD

[Wolfgang]

I havn't looked at the cimeron advertizment since it first came out . . . but, . . the pistol they are offering is made by Uberi and made as a .45 caliber "conversion" from the facory.  Unlike the cap & ball pistols replicas sold as cap & ball revolvers and converted either by individuals or some gunsmiths with after market conversion cylinders.   I've heard that the dimentions of the frame in the factory .45 "conversion" '58s don't accept the ordinary cap & ball cylinders.  There have been a couple of threads about this in the past and you might search for them or someone may recall just what they were.  If you just want a "look like a '58 Remingotn that shoots .45 Colt" then it is good.  If you want to be able to switch back and forth with cartridge and cap & ball cyliders then there seemed to be problems doing that.   Just my $ .03 worth.   It is good that you are checking for information about what you want before buying.

Good shootin', . . . .  

ps.  I have a number of the Pietta made '58s.  While I normaly shoot cap & ball, . . and prefer doing that.  I do have one Kirst converter" in .45 Long Colt and it is an easy . . . "slide it in - slid it out" conversion to cartridge or back to Cap & Ball with out any modification to the pistol.

Pictures at :   www.drburkholter.com/cf6.html  scroll down.

[Vinja]

wow, very nice collection there, and i may look into that Kirst cylinder. thank you all for the comments i truely appreciate it

[Harley Starr]

.44-40 (.44 WCF) is a bottleneck cartridge with a smaller bullet.  Would not work without sleeving everything.

The .44 Remington Centerfire APPARENTLY is interchangeable with .44 Colt, using a heel bullet. ? ? ? ?

The .44 WCF would not work without sleeving everything. What is "sleeving"? I'm not familiar with that term.

[Stophel]

"Sleeving" a gun barrel and chambers would be about like sleeving an engine block.  The Barrel would be bored out  and a new "barrel" that was made to fit would be pressed into place inside the bored out original barrel.  Ideally, it would be soldered in place.  The chambers could, I suppose, be done the same way, then recut for the smaller cartridge.  Not real economical, at least for this.  I also have a photo that I gleaned from the internet of a Remington converted to .32-20, and that's the only way it could be done, outside of completely manufacturing a new barrel and cylinder.

Now, sleeving is a common practice to get old rifles back into shooting shape.

As I understand it, the new Uberti "forged frame" Remingtons are larger in dimension to more easily accomodate .45 colt.  Apparently, they have just quit making the formerly standard cast frames in blued steel? ? ?  So, if you were to order a conversion cylinder they would have to know if you had an older or newer model.

[River City John]

Vinja,
I purchased one of the '58 Remington Conversions earlier this year and have fallen in love with it. The workmanship on the fit and finish is excellent, smooth action with crisp break on the trigger pull and it is a very accurate shooter right out of the box.

I shoot BP in my .45 colt with 250 gr. RNFP slug. Nice in that it is the same round I shoot in my Pedersoli Baby rolling-block carbine for competitions.

You will not be disappointed.
RCJ

[Major 2]

Vinja,
I purchased one of the '58 Remington Conversions earlier this year and have fallen in love with it. The workmanship on the fit and finish is excellent, smooth action with crisp break on the trigger pull and it is a very accurate shooter right out of the box.

I shoot BP in my .45 colt with 250 gr. RNFP slug. Nice in that it is the same round I shoot in my Pedersoli Baby rolling-block carbine for competitions.

You will not be disappointed.
RCJ

+ 1

[Mad River Frank]

I've been trying to get my gunshop to locate a Uberti RNMA Conversion like yours in .45LC, but all they've been able to tell me is Uberti is behind on production of them.  I've got two Pietta Rem NMA's both with the Kirst Conversion .44Rem cylinder.  I also have three Kirst converter cylinders in .45LC.  The intention was to use the three cylinders ala "Pale Rider", but I've found the Pietta action works best with six bona fide ratchet points on the back of the cylinder than the odd arrangement on the Kirst .45LC cylinder.  Often I can't swap out the cylinders as quickly as I'd like.  I suppose a gunsmith can make them function properly.  Althought I must rely on reloads from out of state--Gad's Custom cartridges, I've found his ammo to be top quality and the outside lubed bullets of the Remington load look great in my cartridge belt.  After all that verbiage, thanks for sharing--maybe Uberti will have a few more of the conversions out in 2010.

[Flint]

The original Remington conversions were 46 cal rimfire, and had 5-shot cylinders.  They, or anyone in the day couldn't have made a 6-shot cylinder in 45Colt.  R&D did it by a 1/2 degree angle (1 degree?) to the chambers to spread the rims far enough apart to fit side by side in the circle..  It does not seem to affect accuracy.

Remington manufactured conversions and sold the guns with both cap & ball and cartridge cylinders so an owner could still shoot the revolver if cartridges weren't available wherever he was at the time.

Uberti's factory conversions are enlarged enough to get 6 chambers in the cylinder, parallel.

[Daniel Nighteyes]

R&D did it by a 1/2 degree angle (1 degree?) to the chambers to spread the rims far enough apart to fit side by side in the circle..  It does not seem to affect accuracy.

Now, where have I heard that before?

... so creating SAFE 45 Colt conversion cylinders required some work-arounds.  Kirst solved it by only drilling five chambers in the cylinder.   R&D conversion cylinders have six chambers, but each is drilled on a slight diagonal.

Just had ta pick atcha a bit, Flint.  Wishing the Season's best to you and yours!

-- Nighteyes

[Wolfgang]

Well I learned something new.        I knew that Remington did factory conversions of the percussion New Model Army revolvers to cartridge. . . . . but didn't know until just now that they actually did make some cartidge model as an original production.  You can see one at http://www.joesalter.com/ Go to the antique handguns, and then scoll down to item # 12796.  Really nice too    . . . and a pretty nice price . . . if'n ya care to have one. . . . though ya may have a little trouble finding the .38 cal. rimfire ammunition to shoot it.  A very interesting gun.  

[Professor Marvel]

Well I learned something new.        I knew that Remington did factory conversions of the percussion New Model Army revolvers to cartridge. . . . . but didn't know until just now that they actually did make some cartidge model as an original production.  You can see one at http://www.joesalter.com/ Go to the antique handguns, and then scoll down to item # 12796.  Really nice too   

Thank You Her Doktor Wolfgang, this is fascinating!

Per Joe Salter site:
"This revolver SN # 44030 is one of the approx 6000 new model navies built as a cartridge gun and not a conversion. "
"This newly made piece does not have any assembly numbers. "
"This piece was found in its original trade case of the period. The case is crudely made compared to the Colt casing. The exterior shows the normal abuse. The bottom show the remnants of the original covering. The interior has its original lining which shows all of the wear points but is complete."

Now, I am not knowledgable regarding original Remingtons and the accoutertments, but I I have the following questions/ issues:

One can clearly see that the cylinder was originally a percussion cylinder cylinder, cut back for a cartridge conversion, and the percussion loading lever has been left intact. Since there is a loading gate one cannot swap out a percussion cylinder. Original Percussion parts were used, Thus I would think that a more accurate description would be a "Factory Conversion" rather than  "built as a cartridge gun and not a conversion". Perhaps the "fine line" difference might be that the gun never "left the factory" prior to "conversion"?

Salter's site notes "case is crudely made compared to the Colt casing." ... and there are no identifying marks on it that identify it as coming from Remington... (did Remington ever put out such a crude box?)

and

"This newly made piece does not have any assembly numbers" - (Did Remington let reovolvers leave their factory this way?)

No offense to Salter, and most certainly none to Herr Doktor Wolfgang, but With the above "issues" and lack of documentation I would really have to ask if this was really "done in the factory" .....

let the speculation commence, and the fur fly.

Happy Holidays and
yhs
prof marvel

[River City John]

www.oldguns.net/pix/16921.jpg

Here is another thick-plate conversion for sale.

RCJ

[Wolfgang]

Probably a question of "factory made into cartridge without first being sold as a cap & ball"      I wonder where the 6,000 production number comes from ?  A very nice pistol in unusually fine condition.