Help - conversion on original Remington NMA - 44 rimfire Henry - ever done?

[bedbugbilly]

I'm hoping someone out there can help me out in regards to conversions done on the 1858 Remington Army during the post Civil War era.  (I'm working on a novel and need to have accurate information - I'm well versed in muzzleloaders and cap and ball but not in the new fangled cartridge guns).  My question revolves around this.  The .44 Henry rimfire cartridge obviously was used in the Henry Rifle and in the 1866 Winchesters.  From my research, I gather that the more powerful centerfire cartridges weren't used in the Winchesters untill the 1873 model was introduced with a heavier receiver.  At some point, the 44-40 cartridge was interchangable between the Winchester and the Colt (and other makes) so only one cartridge was required to be carried.  Were any of the 1858 Remington Army revolvers converted to use the .44 Henry rimfire cartridge?   I'm assuming that since the Remington was .44, the .44 Henry rimfire would work with an alteration to the hammer to fire the rimfire cartridge?  I have several original .44 Henry rimfire cartridges (copper casings) and it looks like the length of them would work in a Remington cylinder.  If conversions were made that would accept the .44 Henry cartridge, when would they have been available - late 1860's - 1870's?  As I said, I am not up on the cartridge guns and have only seen photos of the conversion cylinders that are available today.  I, again, am assuming (and we all know what "assume" spells) that if the original Remingtons were converted, there would have been the addition of a loading gate, an ejector rod and perhaps an alteration to the recoil shield?  Would the original cylinders be bored out all the way and chambered to accept the .44 rimfire cartridge or would the entire cylinder be replaced?  Any help and information would be greatly appreciated.  Thank you!

[Jake MacReedy]

In my research, using McDowell's book as the main source, as well as articles in "Man At Arms" magazine, I have only found reference to .46 Rimfire, .44 Colt & .44 Russian, and .45 Colt conversions of the Remington New Modle Army, and the older Remington Beals.  As far as I can tell, none were modified to take the .44 Henry Rimfire cartridge.  Someone else may have additional information.  Of note, the 5-shot .46 Rimfire conversions were first started in 1868, under contract by Remington with Smith & Wesson, for Benjamin Kittredge, a dealer from Cincinnati, Ohio.

So, for your timeframe, the 5-shot .46 Rimfire conversion may be your best bet.  For these, a new cylinder, full-length in the frame window, with a backplate/recoil shiled inletted into the rear of the frame, was fitted.  The cylinder was bored through, utilizing the Rollin White patent, and the cartridges were loaded from the rear, with the aid of a loading channel in the right side of the recoil shiled in the frame.

Hope this helps!

Jake

[Stophel]

What about .44 Remington Center Fire?

[Wolfgang]

I'm no X-purt on such stuff.   But it would seem to me that the .44 Henry bullet is too small a dia for the bore of the New Model Army Revolvers.  So such a conversion wouldn't make sense.  Certainly never heered of such a conversion.  The .46 rimfire is the cartidge I've most seen mentioned in the "for sale" adverts of conversions.

[bedbugbilly]

Thanks to all for your input - it's greatly appreciated.

Wolfgang - can you or another member explain a little bit to me about bore diameters, etc.?  I'm pretty much a lifelong frontstuffer on long guns.  If I have, say, a .36 caliber rifle, I usually use a .350 ball with a patch which basically takes up the rifling.  I'm not that familiar with cartrige conversions, nor the various cartridges used.  One response said that some conversions were for .46 caliber cartridges.  My question is this.  The Remington NMA was supposed to be .44 caliber.  Now I know that in C & B we use an "oversize" ball - I use a .375 in my '51 Navy.  When it is seated in the cylinder, a "ring" is sheared off and the ball is tight in the cylinder and in theory, no longer "round" because of the amount of lead that was sheared off that formed the "ring".  I've never "miked" my bore or cylinder chambers but I have always assumed that if it was machined correctely, the cylinder chambers would be .360 and the bore would be .360 from bottom of groove to bottom of groove - thus when the ball is going through the barrel, the rifling "cuts" into the ball to give it the spin.  If the NMA was .44 caliber, why would a .44 cartridge not work?  If the NMA is a "true" .44 - is the .44 measurement of the bore from the top of land to the top of land or is it from the bottom of groove to the bottom of groove or is it in the middle of those two measurements?  This is just a "curiousity" question on my part and perhaps you or someone else can explain why a .44 cartridge wouldn't be ideal to use and why larger diameters liike a .45 or .46 was used for the conversions of the Remington .44 NMA.  Not really knowing  if my assumption that the bore size is measured from bottom of groove to bottom groove is correct or not, offhand, it seems like using say a .45 or .46 caliber cartridge in a .44 barrel is akin to trying to put a pumpkin through a pea shooter (well, maybe that's a wee bit exagerated but you get my train of thought).  Many thanks ahead of time for an explanation for those of us that aren't well versed on the "new fangled" cartrige guns.  It's greatly appreciated!  Sincerely, bedbug

[Wolfgang]

Bore diameter back in them days was the "bore" before it was rifled.  Not the groove diameter "bore" is measured now.  Also there were variations between the specs of the different firearms manufactures as to bore dimentions.  In addition here was a lot of gun manufacurers producing their own propriotary ( sp? ) cartridges for "their guns".  As I said . . . I ain't no X-purt on such things.  Just conveying my $ .03 worth.  When Remington began converting New Model Army's to cartridge I'd suspect that they just made their own new cartridge to use in their conversions ?   There are books specifically about cartridge conversions.  I don't have any of them.  Someone was listing one of them for sale on the SASS wire classifieds just recently.   

[bedbugbilly]

Thanks Wolfgang for taking the time to reply - your .03 cents worth was just fine and I appreciate it very much.  Your explanation clears up why the .44 wouldn't work very well when you explain what the "bore size" was on the originals.  That makes perfect sense to me and explains why the .45, .46, etc. would work.  My curiosity was answered and no cats got killed in the process so I guess all turns out well!  ;-)  Thanks so much for sharing and clearing that question up!  Sincerely, bedbug

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Like Wolfgang said.  .44 Percussion revolvers as marketed to the army during the CW had a .44 bore, and .450-.452 groove diameter.  That is why they were loaded with a .45 round ball or conical.  When converting to cartridge, they barrel remained as issued and a round was designed to fit.  The Army actually designed what is now called the .44 Colt, a centre fire from the start.  To get six holes in the cylinder the case had to be as narrow as possible.  The result was a heeled bullet about .45 in front of the case but rebated to fit inside a case, also of about .45 outside diameter.

The .44 Henry, as I've read, started out by "doubling" of the measurements of the first rim-fire cartridge, the .22.  Thus, the bullet came out at .442, or thereabouts.

So we now have two separate streams of evolving designs;
1.  The .44 Henry spawned two successors.  S&W used the .44 Henry in their first No. 3 revolvers, which very quickly became the .44 American simply by using a centre fire case.  Then, by using almost the same bullet, .430, they created the .44 Russian by using a case wide enough that the bullet fit inside the case.  This new case was .454 outside diameter.  Sound familiar?
2.   The .44 Colt round, and its very similar Remington partner, lasted for quite a while, up until WWII, I believe.  But the Army wanted a real .45 in 1873.  The result was the .45 Colt, an entirely new design, but of course incrementally evolving from earlier rounds.

We are left today with the .45 line of development, .45 Colt, .45 Schofield, and even the .45 ACP, with a .451 - .454 bullet, and the .44 line, .44 Russian, .44 Special, & the .44 Rem Mag. with the .430 bullet.  Comparing the two design streams has used up an awful lot of paper & ink from gunwriters.

In a perverse turn of the wheel, we also have a "modern" .44 Colt made with a .430 bullet requiring a new barrel, but allowing loading modern bullets rather than the awkward heeled bullet of the original, and a case very similar to the .44 Russian.

The .38 also evolved into the .357 bore in a similar fashion.

[bedbugbilly]

Sir Charles - thank you very much!  You fellas have taught me a lot in regards to my question and I appreciate if very much!  I knew there was a reason I shyed away from cartridge guns and now I know why!  I'd probably buy the wrong cartridges and then screw up and put 'em in backwards!    I haven't been to a cowboy shooting competition yet but look forward to getting to one at some point.  I respect you fellas that advance to using conversions, etc. and keeping the sport alive so others can appreciate and get an idea of what it was like.  As far as my originaql question goes about the .44 Henry in a Remington conversion - after the explanations and lessons, my character in the novel will be armed with a '66 Winchester in .44 Henry and keep on using combustible cartridges and powder and ball in the Remington Army he brought home from the war.  The story will take place in the Arizona Territory in the mid to late 1860s so that seems appropriate.  Thanks again to all who helped to clear up my questions - it's greatly appreciated.  Just goes to show you what fine folks are on this forum!  Sincerely, bedbug

[Wolfgang]

Bed Bug Billy . . . . GREAT that you are doing such detailed reasearch about the appropriate firearms for the character in your book.   

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Now you are into another line of research.  Percussion revolvers can be loaded two ways;

1. A measure of powder is poured in, topped with a round ball, rammed with the lever attached under the barrel.  Each loaded chamber is then smeared with lube over the bullet, to prevent chainfire and ease the operation of the revolver for subsequent loads.  Then the nipples are capped.  This is the method used when combustible cartridges were not available or too expensive.  many think the loosely loaded roundball loads were more accurate and often more effective.  The disadvantage was speed of loading.  Remember ROOSTER COGBURN reloading that Dragoon revolver at the kitchen table?

2. Arsenal issue or commercially purchased combustible cartridges, usually packed in sixes in a waterproof packet with, usually about 8 caps.  The packet is opened and the tapered end of the cartridge poked into the chamber, rotated under the rammer and the loading completed as above.  This is the primary method in the days. The packets were relatively rugged and waterproof, and separate supplies of powder & ball need not be carried.

Here is a link to modern homemade combustible cartridge making. Go to page (2) and check out SGT CHAPMAN's posts

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,9695.msg145036.html#msg145036

[Stophel]

I have photos of several Remington conversions gleaned from gun dealers, auctions, etc.  Some of them have no caliber designation. One is a .45 Colt, and others are listed as .44 Remington Center fire.  ALL of these guns are six shot.

I have found little information on .44 CF.  "Cartridges of the World" doesn't list it (but does show .46 short rimfire as being listed at the time for Remington and Smith and Wesson revolvers...though I don't know of any S&W .46 rimfires....).  Under the heading for .44 Colt, it says that this cartridge could be used in the 1875 Remington .44. APPARENTLY, .44 Rem. C.F. is similar to .44 Colt, using a heel bullet???

It would be nice to know an actual, measured bore/groove/chamber dimension for an original ".44" Remington.

[Joe Lansing]

    As long as you'r writing a scenario, consider having the Remington '58 barrel lined to accept the 44 Henry bullet the same way Sharpes 52 cal. percussion carbines were lined to convert them to use 50-70 cartridges.

                                                                 J.L.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Joe;  Why do that when .44 Colt/Rem was easier and available?

[Wolfgang]

In the time frame that Bed Bug Billy says his book will be in  (  late 1860s )  conversions weren't all that common and it would be a lot more realistic for his character to use the 1866 Winchester and paper cartridges for his '58 Remington.  Sounds pretty good to me.  I await the book 

[Joe Lansing]

    Charles, so he can use the same ammo in  his '66 or Henry. Remember, this is post CW, not today.

                                                       J.L.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Joe;  Then he should consider one of the earliest S&W No 3's made in .44 rf.  About 1870 I believe?

[Stophel]

People were still packin' percussion pistols long after the advent of cartridges anyway.  Play it safe, and stick with plain ol' 51 Navies, and .44 NMA's, and .36 Whitneys.   

[Wolfgang]

I don't know what the characters role is or his profession in the story.  Pistols weren't shot much back then.  Were carried around in case of need.  A rifle was what was used for shooting game, indians, coyotes, etc.   A cap & ball pistol worked just fine.  The new fangled cartidge conversions ( if even available ) cost a bit of money.  Cap & ball pistols were readily available as leftovers from the Civil War.  A cartidge repeating rifle was however a bit step up in fire power technoligy as compared to front stuffer long guns.   

[Gaucho Gringo]

There was a saying in the Old West that you use your pistol to fight your way to your rifle. The rifle was the preferred firearm in rhe old west. Even John Wayne once he got past his B movies carried or used a lever action carbine or rifle in most of his later western movies. The smoothbore shotgun was the most numerous weapon in the Old West by numbers+
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