Merwin, Hulbert & Co revolvers

[Blair]

You all need to focus you attention on the historical aspect of firearms.
This is, after all a forum based on cowboy, pre 1900 types of arms and how they were made then (not how they might or could be made now, more than 100 years later)
If you all want to try to keep your quest for info within this restrictions, I'll be more than pleased to try to reply within the limits of knowledge. Otherwise, forget it!!!
My best,
Blair

[Major 2]

Blair

the OP of this thread was asking about the Company,
or the attempt of the failed Company to make M & H since about 2005.
Granted the thread has ebbed & flowed...

[hawkeye2]

+1 on what Major 2 said.  Here is the original post that has generated 13 pages of discussion over many years:

"Has anything ever come of the company that was wanting to reproduce the Merwin Hulberts?  Are they still around and actually producing guns?"

[litl rooster]

I love this dusty trail

[Colt Fanning]

Howdy,
The photobucket pictures in the link posted by Prof Marvel of the new MH revolvers appear to show then with case hardened frames.  Were any of the original MH revolvers made with this finish?  I have seen originals only in Chrome and Blued.

Regards
Colt

[Blair]

Colt Fanning,

Chrome?
Sorry, I can't and wont help you.
Not until you do some research.
My best,
Blair

[Colt Fanning]

Hi,
Yes Chrome is wrong, I meant nickle.  I realized the error about 30 min after I posted.
Regards
Colt

[St. George]

The photobucket images are drawings...

They were merely meant to illustrate to potential investors the project and to generate belief that progress was being made in order to lure investment capital.

They failed and no revolvers or spares were produced.

Now as to spares for the Merwin, Hulbert revolver - be it large frame or small - spares reside inside revolvers owned by others, who are quite proud of them, as a general rule.

You 'might' find something sitting in a cigar box at a gun show, somewhere - but you're not going to be able to order anything from a supplier of parts.

Art Phelps (now deceased) wrote a most interesting book on the Merwin, Hulbert revolvers - I would seriously suggest locating a copy and reading it - then reading it again.

Scouts Out!

[Colt Fanning]

Howdy,
The reason that I posed the question is that I own a MH pocket army which has been refinished with case hardening on the frame.  I was wondering if any of the originals were case hardened.  I have only seen them in Nickle or Blue.
Regards
Colt

[St. George]

Those are the original two finishes offered - casehardening wasn't, though it's often seen today on firearms that never had it when new.

Scouts Out!

[Driftwood Johnson]

Hi,
Does anyone know of any description, photos, or drawings of the tooling MH used to make their revolvers?  It is hard to understand how some parts like the top strap where it locks to the frame were made.

Howdy

I have no actual information about the actual tooling and fixtures used to make the Merwin Hulbert, but examining one closely can give some clues. The barrel rotated around the cylinder pin or arbor when latching and unlatching it. The matching cuts in the frame and barrel that allow the parts to nest together are radial, centered around the cylinder pin. So my best guess is the parts would have been mounted in a fixture that centered the parts at the cylinder pin, allowing the parts to rotate, while the cuts were made with a profiled cutter.

[Colt Fanning]

Howdy,
What I was puzzled about until I thought about it for awhile was the machining of the renterant slot on the end of the top strap.
I now see that the recess in front of it is wide enough to allow a hook shaped boring bar to enter and be be moved backward to cut the slot.  As for rotating around the axis of the center pin, this could be done as you suggest by holding the work in a fixture or by having the center pin housing extend beyond the end of the barrel to mount in a chuck while the machining was done.  It would then be cut back to the proper length after machining of the top strap etc.  Seeing things like this puzzle me until I can figure out how they were done.
Regards
Colt

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Regarding blued or nickeled MHs, the great majority of the photos in Art Phelps' book The Story of Merwin Hulbert & Co. Firearms show nickel plated guns. there are very few blued guns in the book. He does state in one caption that 'blued guns are very rare, only about 5% of production.' However it is unclear to this reader whether the 5% figure meant overall production or the specific model pictured.

In the back of the book there is a reprint of the John P. Lovell 1890 Guns and Hunting Supplies catalog. It lists a large assortment of MH revolvers. The catalog states they were available blued or nickel plated, with no difference in price. There is no mention of Case Hardening.

I know over at Smith and Wesson during the 19th Century they produced more nickel plated guns than blued. The reason is probably because the gun blues of the time were not as robust as the blue used to today, and did not afford as much protection against corrosion as nickel plating did.

Thinking back, I do not recall ever seeing a blued Merwin Hulbert, all the ones I recall seeing were nickel plated.

[wildman1]

Prescott shoot got cancelled, looks like I'll have to wait on the M&H.  wM1

[Colt Fanning]

Howdy,
I would very much like to read Art Phelps book but it is out of print and the prices that are quoted approach the cost of a low end MH revolver.
Regards
Colt

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

There are a couple of books available at Amazon right now for $299 or $300. You ain't going to find an original Merwin Hulbert anywhere for that price. I don't remember what I paid for my copy, probably a bit less than that, but it was expensive.

Look at it this way. It is not a great book. It is the only book on the subject, so pretty much all the collective knowledge comes from the Art Phelps book. The photos are good, and there is some good historical information. But I find that Phelps was quite biased, particularly the way he thought that the machining was so precise on a Merwin Hulbert that nobody else could have built them, which is ridiculous. If they had a mind to, Smith and Wesson could have built the Merwin Hulbert design, there is nothing in it more precise than anything Smith and Wesson was capable of doing. They simply choose not to. I strongly suspect the reason behind the unusual design of the MH was because of patent restrictions on some of the other better known designs of the time. S&W were very fierce about pursing patent violators.

And the S&W Top Break designs really were superior to the MH. As I believe I have said earlier, to unload and load a Smith all you had to do was break it open. All the cartridges would eject and the gun was open and ready to reload. With the MH design, once you have popped it open to empty it, you have to close the gun up and reload one at a time through a loading gate, not much different than a Colt. There was no way to load the MH while it was broken open.

[Will Ketchum]

Howdy

There are a couple of books available at Amazon right now for $299 or $300. You ain't going to find an original Merwin Hulbert anywhere for that price. I don't remember what I paid for my copy, probably a bit less than that, but it was expensive.

Look at it this way. It is not a great book. It is the only book on the subject, so pretty much all the collective knowledge comes from the Art Phelps book. The photos are good, and there is some good historical information. But I find that Phelps was quite biased, particularly the way he thought that the machining was so precise on a Merwin Hulbert that nobody else could have built them, which is ridiculous. If they had a mind to, Smith and Wesson could have built the Merwin Hulbert design, there is nothing in it more precise than anything Smith and Wesson was capable of doing. They simply choose not to. I strongly suspect the reason behind the unusual design of the MH was because of patent restrictions on some of the other better known designs of the time. S&W were very fierce about pursing patent violators.

And the S&W Top Break designs really were superior to the MH. As I believe I have said earlier, to unload and load a Smith all you had to do was break it open. All the cartridges would eject and the gun was open and ready to reload. With the MH design, once you have popped it open to empty it, you have to close the gun up and reload one at a time through a loading gate, not much different than a Colt. There was no way to load the MH while it was broken open.

Well put and I agree with everything you say in regards to the MH and S&W. Both great guns but the Smith & Wesson's are superior for the reasons you stated.

Will Ketchum

[Blair]

Within my experience, and that has on been with only 5 or 6 MH revolvers (two of which I own), there is a lack of interchangeability within model types that are/or should be very similar.

I have not found this to be an issue within S&W models of a similar or of the same type.
My best,
Blair

[Fox Creek Kid]

...Thinking back, I do not recall ever seeing a blued Merwin Hulbert, all the ones I recall seeing were nickel plated.

http://www.ocyoung.com/Merwin.htm

[Professor Marvel]

Regarding Art's book -
With the current prices being asked for the few extant copies,  I have to wonder why another run, ie 3rd or 4th edition , has not been considered by the principles. In the nearly 25 years since the last edition, computerized publication would make it cost effective and one "ought to" be able to put out another softcover edition  in, let us say a $30-$40 price range and I suspect it would sell like hotcakes!

Is Art still around?

yhs
prof marvel