Merwin, Hulbert & Co revolvers

[Mean Bob Mean]

Finally, the gun was sent to a fellow in Iowa, who made the spring and got the gun running...

This would have been my suggestion--find a smith who can make it for you.

[River City John]

   I rolled my dice a year ago and talked to them 2 weeks before the new website went up on line.  Now hence we have the no refund rule and production near what was I was told. I will post no more on the subject till I have a  45 Colt M-H Pocket Army in my hand.

Fowler, did you forget to take pics and post?

RCJ

[Colt Fanning]

Howdy,
I have determined that the mainspring used in the large frame S&W revolvers (K&N Frame) will function in the Large frame Merwin Hulbert Arms with the addition of a homemade spring extender.  The Numerich part number is 315490B.  The cost is $10.60.

[Blair]

Colt Fanning,

It is a good idea!
I have tried doing the same thing using a modern made repro S&W Schofield mainspring in an original # 3 S&W frame.
Response was, at best, rather less than satisfactory.
Starting with an original K or N frame mainspring may have been a better choice. I don't know?
I am still looking for this very long original Smith revolver mainspring.
My best,
Blair

[Major 2]

I had tried that route, you'll note my gun was a skull crusher ...no soap
The spring jammed into the hammer , it would work almost then contact and force the spring to over bend..Snap !

The custom spring has a dog leg and is working , but there are still trigger reset issues and some mistiming in the rotation work continues.

[Colt Fanning]

Howdy,
I have found that mistiming in rotation is usually due to one of the following issues.
1. Hand is too short.  I cut notches into the hand, with a dremell diamond cut off tool in a drill press with the hand held in a milling vise, to receive an inlay of tool steel (see JPEG).  I make the inlay out of flat ground stock 1/32 in. thick from MSC supply.  The part number is 06102206.  I solder it to the hand with Hi Force solder from Brownells.  It can then be ground with the diamond cut off tool until it correctly advances the cylinder.
2. Bolt notches in cylinder are worn. This is the problem when the cylinder consistently locks on some chambers and over rotates consistently on others.   Merwin cylinders are heavy and too soft for rapid cocking.  I mill a slot in the cylinder with a 1/16 in. end mill to receive an inlay of the tool steel. ( See jpeg) This must be done accurately so that the cylinder aligns with the barrel when cocked.
3.  The bolt spring is too weak.  A satisfactory bolt spring can be obtained from Jones Spring Co.  The part number is C04-020-020 or for a slightly stiffer spring C04-024-020.

The trigger return on the MH is caused by the hammer spring attached to a finger which pivots on a screw in the hammer.  The spring needs to be long enough (see Jpeg) to lift up on the finger rather tha pulling back toward the shooter.  I also was having trouble with the spring and link dragging on the hammer and I relieved the hammer with a dremell tool.  When this didn't help I discovered that the finger was broken just below the screw and was bending every time I cut more relief.  I made a new finger.  The sources of friction on the trigger return need to be minimized by lapping the trigger to the bolt and the hand to the ratchet.  Too much force from the bolt spring will produce enough friction between the trigger and the bolt to inhibit the trigger return.  The trick is to get enough force from the bolt spring to produce reliable lock up but not enough to prevent the trigger return.
Regards
Colt

Disclaimer:  I make no representation that any antique firearm with or without the above modifications is safe to shoot.  If you desire to shoot any antique firearm, you must have it checked out by a competent gunsmith and shoot it at your own risk.  I disclaim liability for all damages resulting from shooting firearms with the above modifications.   

[Colt Fanning]

Opps,
The Hand JPEG didn't post and is attached.  The spring position can be observed in my previous post.

[Professor Marvel]

Fowler, did you forget to take pics and post?

RCJ

Ah My Dear RC John -
Let us be charitable to the poor fellow and not rub salt in the wound....

however, since soemone poked the odiferous corpus with a stick I thought to look about and lo and behold, we discover that the folks who recieved their refunds owe it all to someone they probably never heard of!

Please Be Aware: Those who got refunds, it was not due to Mike Blank, or Kevin Tierney ( the self-titled  turn-around specialist Blank went to) .

You owe your refunds to  Wyoming native Jay Lesser who worked for each of the previous owners.

Here is my heavily edited version of an article posted July 21, 2013 12:00 pm

http://trib.com/business/poor-management-unfilled-orders-lead-to-glenrock-business-s-failure/article_ed53d03c-7138-5c34-9806-a80817f29ff6.html


We are familiar with the story just prior to  the refunds. Blank had CAD drawings, some prototype parts, a building,
and $143,000 in deposits. From the below story it would appear he had no intention of making any refunds.

let us review these snips from the article:
-----
- Art Alphin promised to move A-Square Rifle and ammunition company to Glenrock, WY.
- Glenrock built a $1.5 mill facility for Alphin to lease and to employ 23 locals.
- Alphin proved to be unreliable, and after a federal investigation Glenrock pushed for new leadership
- new owners took over, named the business Sharps Rifle Co, and took orders to build M&H revolvers
- the new owners  Michael Blank and Al Jones,  brochures and computer-generated images but were unable to produce
   products.

- Michael Blank approached Tearney in the summer of 2011 .
- Under a re-org Blank turned over to Tierney the remaining equipment estimated @ ~ $70,000.

They had no products,  no income, no way to pay rent, and a liability of $1.5 million facility and equipment, Tierney said the best thing the company could do was surrender to its creditors.

In early 2012, he arranged a deal on rent payments with the town of Glenrock that would allow him to raise new capital to start rifle production.

At about the same time Clyde Hutchins,  (senior assistant attorney general for Wyoming) led a Wyoming attorney general's investigation into the company in 2012.

"Hutchins said investigators found roughly 140 consumer complaints dating back to 2009. When paying customers asked Sharps Rifle Co. for a refund, they were told no refunds were available."

"Investigators never saw a finished pistol, Hutchins said, though the business's owners, Michael Blank and Al Jones, offered plenty of flashy brochures and computer-generated images. In 2012, the AG's office mandated the company refund the customers, who paid a collective $143,000 to Sharps Rifle Company."

Tierney was ~ $1 million away from reaching his start-up purse, when  Jay Lesser and an unknown financier bought it.

"Jay Lesser is now the president of Broadsword Group, a limited liability company that owns every enterprise that has come before it in the Glenrock building. Despite lofty projections of dozens of helping hands at the factory and millions of dollars in sales, not one of the previous companies employed more than four people, Lesser said. He estimated fewer than 40 guns have come off the line there. Today he oversees a six-man operation that recently turned out its first loads of ammunition, packaged and ready for sale.

"I've always looked at this as the Field of Dreams," Lesser said. "Build it, and they will come."

He started by mailing refunds to people who deposited money on Merwin Hulbert pistols that never came. He built and shipped rifles that A-Square and Alphin never produced, he said.

And unlike his predecessors, Lesser said, he will not take a dime until a finished product is packaged and ready to go. The company plans to manufacture bullets and rifles on site and have 20 employees by the first of next year. "

read this article for the details:
http://trib.com/business/poor-management-unfilled-orders-lead-to-glenrock-business-s-failure/article_ed53d03c-7138-5c34-9806-a80817f29ff6.html

interestingly, I see the thread we had in which one of the prior head honchos replied to us has been deleted.

yhs
prof marvel

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Prof M; There is a use for the "quote" button to save stuff that may get deleted by the poster!

[Colt Fanning]

Hi,
Does anyone know of any description, photos, or drawings of the tooling MH used to make their revolvers?  It is hard to understand how some parts like the top strap where it locks to the frame were made.

Regards
Colt

[Blair]

Colt Fanning,

Its my understanding that NO revolvers were made up. A few internal parts but no revolvers.

The lock up is on the bottom front of the frame on all of the originals I have seen. The hammer has to be in the safety cock notch before the release button can be operated, allowing the opening the revolver.
My best,
Blair

[Colt Fanning]

hi,
I am talking about about how the original MH revolvers were made.  The part that I didn't see how it could be made is the top strap on the models with a top strap where it joins the frame above the hammer.  Sorry for the confusion.

Regards
Colt

[Blair]

Colt Fanning,

Simple answer to your question is no.
No drawings or photos of the tooling used to manufacture the original MH revolves.

You maybe surprised to know that MH does not manufacture their product. This was contracted out to Hopkins & Allen.
My best,
Blair

[St. George]

There's also been observations made that the above-mentioned parts weren't new-made, but were well-cleaned originals touted to be new production.

My money's on that.

When dreaming of Merwin, Hulberts, and new production and fantasies - remember the old Staff Officer's mantra:

There Is No Horse So Dead That You Can Not Continue To Beat It'.

Scouts Out!

[Blair]

St. George,

I suspect your "money" would be well invested where the "new" MH & Co. is/are concerned.

I miss understood Colt Fanning's request.
I tried to reply to that question with what info I had on the "new" MH & Co. guns. 
I can in all honesty, say that I was trying to bring the topic back to the original firearms and stay within my working knowledge of these original arms.
I do not consider discussions of the original firearms as beating a dead horse.
My best,
Blair

[Mean Bob Mean]

Hi,
Does anyone know of any description, photos, or drawings of the tooling MH used to make their revolvers?  It is hard to understand how some parts like the top strap where it locks to the frame were made.

Regards
Colt

I believe (someone correct me if wrong) they were supposed to be CNC machined, so each part would be cut out of steel using a computer generated drawing (that is, a set of numerical instructions fed into the computer) and then hand finished and fitted.  Someone here who knows the pistol/manufacturing might be able to give you an idea as to how expensive that would be using American labor and materiel prices.   

[Colt Fanning]

Howdy,
The internal parts of a MH are similar in shape to those used in modern double action revolvers and I would think they could be made with the same type of tooling used today.  (probably mostly CNC)  It is the barrel and frame that are the challenge.   BTW after some thought I realized how the top strap could be machined.

Regards
Colt

[Major 2]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions...old proverb and quite appropriate...

There have been Flim Flam artists, frankly I think one or more of this crowd was just that....
I don't believe enough NEW parts were ever produced let alone a complete gun...
Freshen up original parts, maybe some fancy CAD draw prints beyond that nothing and perhaps that was the intent.
That's what Fletcher & Bidwell and the Spencer folly was about...



> I understand the gun I had (sold) and posted above, has had a spring produced , however it has again returned to back burner
status as there were still issues.
I would have loved to seen it working, but my patience and willingness to spend unknown dollars wore out, when another project presented itself.

[Professor Marvel]

For your entertainment:

someone wanted to know how the barrel attached - here is a photo of an original
http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv236/twaits/IMGP4664.jpg


The Failed Merwin hired a CADCAM shop Salient Tech in Bozeman,
https://www.elance.com/samples/merwin-hulbert-rendering-salient-technologies-product-design-3d-scanning-prototyping-industrial-desi/27759005/

http://salient-tech.com/happy-clients-2/

to make up the software,

and I found this photobucket from the efforts in Wyoming:
http://s1191.photobucket.com/user/SharpsMilSpec/library/MerwinHulbertCo?sort=3&page=1

in one of the photos you can see a very dark grey plastic prototype on the work table.

I counted 5 or 6 frames, cylinders, and cylinder pins in the photos. Lord only knows where they went.
I suppose one could contact the new boss, Jay , but I doubt one could afford them...


yhs
prof marvel

[Major 2]

you probably already know , the frames are Single actions note: the main and trigger return springs

mine was a double action... whole different main spring and trigger reset.