Bottleneck Cartridge Reloading

[Cemetery]

Hey Everybody,

So I'm hunting for a new rifle, in a large caliber, as seen in this post;

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,29203.0.html

and I'm leaning heavily towards a '66 in 44.40.

I've read that 44.40 has it's ups and downs with regards to reloading, but I've got a '92 in 25.20, that I'm gonna have to start reloading if I want to shoot it more often, and the 25.20 is a bottleneck as well.

So is reloading the bottleneck 44.40 have the same up's and down's and any other bottleneck?  I mean, if I'm gonna reload 25.20, why not do 44.40 as well?

Keep in mind, I haven't started reloading anything yet, so my reloading experience is zip.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

It's not that difficult.  Things to watch for;

- Carbide dies are not available;                         - you must lube and wipe cases.

- Brass is thinner;                                            - proceed carefully and align the case & dies before dropping the handle
                                                                  - work brass as little as possible
                                                                  - best crimp option for me is the LEE collet crimper

- Chamber/bore diameters vary:                        - Know your firearm, and size bullets as large as one thou'
                                                                    over bore, but small enough to chamber

Some Pards avoid progressive loaders, others use them with care.

I use a LEE 3-die set with complete satisfaction

[Pulp]

I thought I had the .44-40 figgered out, then I went to the Lee Turret Press.  The learning curve started all over again.  I'm almost back to my single stage results.

Couple of things I've learned from the school of hard knocks, the good folks here and on the SASS Wire, do not bell the case any more than absolutely necessary to start the bullet.  I was overbelling and the crimp just couldn't catch the whole thing. 

Do a search in this forum for .44-40 and you'll find a ton of good advice, and also learn the problems most of us have had at one time or another with this great old cartridge.

[Cactus Cris]

I use the Dillon 650 to load my 44/40's.  Have the Redding deprime/size die in #1-- Nothing in hole #2--Dillon powder measure in hole #3-- Dillon 44 spl seating die in hole #4-- Redding crimp die in hole #5.  Never could get the seating/crimping thing to work in one die.   Have tried the Lee factory crimp -didn't like the crimp look, tried the 44spl crimp die--didn't crimp right.    The Dillon 44 spl seating die works just fine to seat the Mav D.  I also don't flare the case mouth all that much, just enough to sit the Mav D on it so it doesn't shave any when seating.
    Doing it this way for 14 yrs--using the same amount of powder, same primer, and same brass (Starline)  Only new addition was the Mav D when it came out.  Used a wax cookie b4 that and a boolit that I cast from an RCBS mold.

[Wolfgang]

Before starting to load .44-40s I'd read all the posts regarding it.   Had no trouble at all.  A couple of cases squashed a bit as I first adjusted the seating / crip die and then all has run smooth.  I use a Lee Turret Press.  Lee dies.  Starline Brass.   Go for it.   

[J.D. Yellowhammer]

One thing I'd caution you about--don't get psyched out by horror stories about .44-40.  Definitely, do your research, but apply common sense and weigh in a few grains of salt.

I've only been reloading fer 5 years. I started with a progressive Dillon 550B for .45 and .38.  Then I got a Lee single stage fer single shot rifles.  It was fun, fast and pretty easy.  My .44-40 experience is recent and although I had some problems with primers and black powder at the beginning, I traced it to the guns (just my revolvers--the rifle rounds have been perfect).  You'll use the same basic process for all of the calibers I've listed. 

I've found .44-40 to be only a little more challenging than the straight wall cases.  Just go easy through the stages and you'll be fine.  Lube the cases, add a slight bell, charge them, seat and crimp.  I'm using the RCBS Cowboy dies and I seat and crimp in the same die.

As mentioned above, it's best to slug yer barrels to discover the best bullet diameter.  I use .428's, Mav Dutchmans and Desperados, depending on powders.  Usually Starline brass.  Whatever primers I can scrape up.

Have fun! 

[Deadeye Dick]

Sir Charles deMouton-Black what he said. +1 and all the other good advice. Do be careful to bell the case enough so the bullet starts with out squashing the brass, but not too much.

Deadeye Dick

[Cemetery]

Thanks for all the tips. 

I was leaning towards 45colt, but then a shooting partner said since I'm gonna have to start reloading 25.20, why not do 44.40, both are bottlenecks?

[Wolfgang]

Besides . . . .  .44-40  is Hysterically Coooo-rect.   Lever rifles weren't made in .45 caliber until the recent Italian copies.  \

Good shootin', . . . . 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I always get a kick out of it when folks start talking about loading bottleneck cartridges.

Here is a photo of some 30-06 cartridges. Now that is a bottleneck, no question about it.



Can you find the 'bottleneck' cartridge in this photo? That's it all the way on the left, one of my 44-40 reloads. Can you even see the taper in the case? That's why I hardly think of 44-40 as a 'bottleneck' cartridge. The taper is so slight it is barely worth mentioning.



In the next photo the cartridge third from the left is a 25-20. From left to right in this photo, for comparison are a 44 Mag, 357 Mag, 25-20, and 30 Herret. Yes, the 25-20 really is a bottleneck cartridge.



What folks fail to realize is that it is not the 'bottleneck' that makes the WCF family of 'pistol' cartridges difficult to load. It is the thinness of the brass at the case mouth. I have measured a zillion 44-40 cases. They usually only run around .007 thick at the mouth. A sheet of paper is around .004 thick, just so we know what we are talking about. A 45 Colt case, on the other hand, usually runs around .012 thick at the case mouth. It is those numbers that tell the story about reloading these cartridges, not the shape. When brass is .012 thick, it is very forgiving of reloading errors, bad crimps, and rough handling. Not so when the brass is only around .007 thick. Then any rough handling or poor crimp settings are pretty well guaranteed to ruin brass.

If you are about to start learning to reload, I strongly suggest you start with a cartridge that is easy to reload, like 45 Colt or 38 Special. These cartridges are very forgiving of over aggressive crimps and rough handling. And carbide sizing dies are available, so you don't need to mess with case lube. The 45 Colt is particularly good to learn on because the components are so big. If you have big hands, 38 Specials can feel kind of small when you are handling them.

I am a self taught reloader. I did a lot of reading, and then decided to start with 45 Colt before I moved on to 44-40. And I'm glad I did. Nothing could be worse than an inexperienced reloader getting frustrated because he keeps mangling his crimps with a cartridge like 44-40. It ain't difficult to load, but it is fussy. And it makes a lot of sense starting on a simple to reload cartridge, rather than plunging into the deep end with one that can be fussy to reload.

[Adirondack Jack]

If ya want headaches, reload .22 Hornet.  Meanwhile, I agree a reloader cutting his teeth could do a lot worse than starting out with .45 Colt.  The grand ole lady of the magnums has a lot to offer in terms of forgiving mistakes.  Let the .44-40 be an advanced course...  Unless of course yer a masochist, then by all means, start with .22 hornet 

[Delmonico]

If ya want headaches, reload .22 Hornet. 

I've heard that rumor, but after thousands of rounds for three different rifles I don't believe it.  Only real problem I've ran into with that one is my brother and nephew's modern Rugar and H&R have 0.224 bores, my rebarreled Low-Wall has a 0.223 bore.  So the 0.223 ones get the primer colored with a green magic marker, has worked fine for years.

[w44wcf]

Here's some "Bottle Neck" .44-40's 


w44wcf

[fourfingersofdeath]

We use a lot of 22Hornets in Australia. Thing we found with them is no hot-rodding (get a 222 or 223 if you want fast) because it will suffer from case separations. having a scribe or a nail with a bend in the end to 'scratch' the inside of the cases to find inciepent case separations was also a good idea. Fine old cartridge lotssssssssssss of dead rabbits and foxes will vouch for it's effectiveness.

[Jamie]

I've reloaded since the early 70's, with Lee, Herter's, and Lyman hand loaders in rifle and shotgun, Lyman nutcrackers for 25-20 and 22 Hornet, a Lee single stage press, and a Dillon progressive.  The Hornet has been a pain, but primarily in terms of getting decent groups, the actual reloading process hasn't been that bad in my experience, though as has been noted, the insepiant case head loss is a very real threat - Hornets DON'T last forever.  The 25-20 has been somewhat problematical in terms of getting enough crimp without collapsing the neck.  Due to the nature of a tube magazine, there has to be a certain amount of tension on the case neck, and it hasn't always been easy to achieve that.  However, when I started loading for the 44-40, I bought the dies, and also picked up a Lee factory crimp die at the same time (Midway, I had it 36 hours after the phone call, no kidding!) and while my loading experience with this grand old girl only extends to about 300 rounds so far, with Hornady swaged bullets, I could not possibly be happier.  I have yet to lose a case, not one round has "accordianed" and the accuracy of the two loads I've tried so far outshoot both boxes of factory fodder I purchased by a LONG ways.  Follow the directions, think about what you're doing, and enjoy the experience.  Heck, for that matter, you could lose a lot of cases and still be way ahead financially by reloading.  In going to full loads of black powder, you also minimize the risk of popping the bullet back down in the case under spring pressure in the magazine.  At any rate, don't be worried, be attentive, and enjoy.
Jamie

[Capt. Montgomery Little]

After a few thousand 44-40 reloads, I must whole heartedly recommend the Lee Factory Crimp Die over any others. This crimp die uses a "compression" crimp rather than a "role" crimp and subsequently works the case mouth a lot less thereby leading to longer case life. I have some that have been loaded 15+ times and show no ill effects. For those of you who bad-mouth the nickel cases, many of these were nickel. If you use proper procedures and don't abuse your equipment and materials, many things will last much longer than some whould have you believe.

PS:  If you have nickel 44-40 cases and want to dispose of them, email me at larry@gripmaker. I'll pay the shipping so you won't be irritated by those nasty buggers ever again.

[Deadeye Dick]

PS:  If you have nickel 44-40 cases and want to dispose of them, email me at larry@gripmaker. I'll pay the shipping so you won't be irritated by those nasty buggers ever again.

If I had any, I'd send them to you.
Deadeye Dick

[w44wcf]

If ya want headaches, reload .22 Hornet.  Meanwhile, I agree a reloader cutting his teeth could do a lot worse than starting out with .45 Colt.  The grand ole lady of the magnums has a lot to offer in terms of forgiving mistakes.  Let the .44-40 be an advanced course...  Unless of course yer a masochist, then by all means, start with .22 hornet 

I've heard that rumor, but after thousands of rounds for three different rifles I don't believe it.  Only real problem I've ran into with that one is my brother and nephew's modern Rugar and H&R have 0.224 bores, my rebarreled Low-Wall has a 0.223 bore.  So the 0.223 ones get the primer colored with a green magic marker, has worked fine for years.

We use a lot of 22Hornets in Australia. Thing we found with them is no hot-rodding (get a 222 or 223 if you want fast) because it will suffer from case separations. having a scribe or a nail with a bend in the end to 'scratch' the inside of the cases to find inciepent case separations was also a good idea. Fine old cartridge lotssssssssssss of dead rabbits and foxes will vouch for it's effectiveness.

Guys, I think Jack was talking about reloading the .22 Hornet with b.p. aka .22 W.C.F.  I have reloaded 1,000's of .22 Hornet ammo with smokeless...no problem...tried b.p. ....problem!...velocity variances of 200 f.p.s.!! accuracy so so ...the most challenging b.p. cartridge I ever loaded!

w44wcf

[Delmonico]

Guys, I think Jack was talking about reloading the .22 Hornet with b.p. aka .22 W.C.F.  I have reloaded 1,000's of .22 Hornet ammo with smokeless...no problem...tried b.p. ....problem!...velocity variances of 200 f.p.s.!! accuracy so so ...the most challenging b.p. cartridge I ever loaded!

w44wcf

Maybe, but I think not, have seen that rumor in print so many times it PO's me.  Like the 44-40 it has a thinner case and don't hold up well to ham-handed reloader like the other thin rounds mentioned. 

Since we have touched on the round, like all BN rounds it is best sized by setting a FL size die to do the neck and just bump the shoulder, no more.  That cures the case seperation problems.  Now often the brass needs to be kept with the rifle that shoot it to began with.  But often not, all 3 Hornets I load for use the same die setting.  Pretty good for 3 rifles made over a 60 year span of time, one a custom.

Best grouping involves not pushing it for pressure and using a powder that fills the case, AA 1680 will fill the case and deliver low pressures.  Have heard good things about Lil Gun also.

Also groups will be better by using a small standard pistol primer, some manuals are even recomending it also now.  Keep the pressures on the lower side below 35,000 psi and there is no problem with the primers flattening or such. 

There is nothing difficult about those, altough cast bullets are another story best not even talked about here, but does give decent results if you are patient.

[w44wcf]

Never had an issue with reloading .22 Hornet cartridges over the past 30+ years.

Delmonico, as you indicated, even though the neck wall thickness is thin like the .44-40, the smaller neck diameter makes it a lot stiffer.

I like AA1680 as well as discontinued W680. I find the former about 20% slower burning than the latter. 

Ditto on the pistol primers......especially for .22 W.C.F. replication  loads (1,600 f.p.s.) using Swiss FFFG or 231, Unique, Tite Group and older Sharpshooter and Dupont Sporting Rifle #80 powders.

w44wcf