Nature of an 1851 Colt Conversion

[Queasy Dillo]

And...again with me and the dumb questions. 

I've been looking into the conversion of the 1851/60 Colts from cap and ball to (I believe) a .38 rimfire.  I have a passing awareness of the 1872 Richards-Mason alterations, but my understanding is that these were done at the factory BY Colt and then sold as new (my understanding that is - quite possibly incorrect). 

My question now is whether this was something that was done outside of the Colt system; i.e., whether or not something like this have been undertaken by a third party.  Reason being, I have a fictional character who's going to be toting a '51 cartridge conversion.  This is in the 1874-75 timeframe, and I figured it'd make more sense for a man of his means to take the less expensive route of upgrading an old gun rather than buying a new one.  I'm also thinking he wouldn't want to be without a pistol too long, so he'd much rather have the conversion done locally (locally meaning west of the Mississippi and east of the Pacific) than having to send it to Colt and go without. 

So is this possible?  Would aftermarket components be available for this sort of thing during that timeframe?  If not, what might be the approximate cost of such an operation?  How long would it take, roughly speaking? 

Any light that can be shed on the subject much appreciated.

QD

[Will Ketchum]

On page 106 of Dennis Adler's "Metallic Cartridge Conversions"it states, "In the early 1870s, as the Western Frontier commenced, 1860 Army conversions to the metallic cartridge became a booming business both for Colt's and gunsmiths in every town and territory from the Mexican border to the Dakotas."  So I guess that answers your question.

Will Ketchum

[Queasy Dillo]

I suppose that covers it.  Thanks for the info.   

[Raven]

If you can get ahold of a copy of R. Bruce McDowell's book A Study of Colt Conversions on Pages 399 and 400 there are pictures of a gunsmith conversion that if I didn't know better (I work for Walt Kirst) I would say was a Kirst conversion.
So from my point of view I would say that the Kirst converter is Historicaly Correct for a gunsmith conversion.

Regards
Raven

[Flint]

Gunsmiths who converted Colts didn't need any factory parts, the cylinder was converted from the cap & ball cylinder by cutting the rear portion off down to the rachet to expose the bores, and chamber for the rim clearance.  They would weld or rivet a firing pin to the nose of the hammer, and manufacture a backplate.

[Paladin UK]

Fer Flint......

Jest  BWOI do you know approx when they started to use welding rather than brazing

Paladin (Whats kinda nosey ) UK

[Slowhand Bob]

A question I have seen asked several times without a definitive answer is, what is the earliest known conversion to a rimmed cartridge for either the Colt or the Remington revolver?  These usually come up in reference to a new viewer seeing the Selleck movie where his wife/father-in-law give him a Colt conversion before the Civil War has even ended.  We know that the capability was there and even the idea shouldnt have been that far fetched but would a frontier gunsmith have felt inhibited by pataent laws?  If we do not have a gun as actual proof, do we have references to the idea?  Ill bet ole Col and Remmington were wishing they could get by those patents before Sumpter was ever fired on!

[St. George]

St. George's Notes XVII - Rollin White...
« on: May 05, 2005, 08:53:29 AM »     

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This one is a thumbnail sketch of the "Dawn of the Metallic Cartridge" - a general 'primer', if you will.

The story is longer - as one might imagine - but this hits the highlights.

Rollin White's bored-through cylinder was a pinnacle event in firearms manufacturing and in the creation of the modern firearm.
The guns immediately created after his Patent ran its course are the literally the "Guns that Tamed the West" - and pretty much everyplace else.

In short:

Rollin White developed and patented the concept of the bored-through cylinder in 1855 - allowing for the use of self-contained cartridges - more specifically the rimfire cartridge in .22 - followed closely by the .32.

As a former employee - he initially offered it to Colt - who never saw the importance of the metallic cartridge and turned it down.

Smith & Wesson bought its use by exclusive license in 1856 and aggressively pursued any and all violations - also purchasing outright several of those companies and their existing inventories who lost court battles fighting S&W.

They allowed Remington to produce cartridge revolvers by paying S&W a royalty in 1868.

Colt tried to circumvent it in 1868 - with the Thuer Conversion - but was effectively halted by the same aggressive protection that they'd always employed against any of their patents.

Once the Rollin White patent ran out - Colt was back in the running - following hard on Smith & Wesson's and Remington's footsteps.
They would produce cartridge conversions beginning in 1871 and those conversions and improvements would lead to the Colt Single Action Army - military contracts - wide acceptance - and everlasting glory.

That's it - short and sweet and to the point

Sam Colt may not have seen the future - but he'd've sure been proud.


For more - try the following:

"The Book of Colt Firearms" - Sutherland and Wilson
"Metallic Cartridge Conversions"  - Adler
"A Study of Colt Conversions and other Percussion Revolvers" - McDowell
"Flayderman's Guide to Antique American Firearms" - Flayderman

If this is your interest - as well it should be, given the time frame represented - I recommend them highly as worthwhile additions to your personal reference library.

If you can't locate them - and have questions - please ask.


Scouts Out!

[Flint]

Paladin, I don't know when they started welding rather than, or as well as brazing, I would think they are fairly contemporary.  There was always "Hammer Welding", which is the blacksmith's method, as well as swordmakers, particularly for laminated swords, see the methods used to make the Japanese swords.

Brazing probably goes back to early times, but really needs better temperature control than welding as the brass can be burned away many degrees below the temperature that would melt the steel.  But since the bronze age preceded the iron age, perhaps brazing was the best anyone could do early on, depending on how hot they could get a forge.

In firearms, brazing is safer for retaining the shape of the part you are attaching to, and not melting or burning it away with an arc welder, or gas.  Many firing pins were attached to percussion hammers for conversion using rivets as well, perhaps more often.

As for other questions, I looked at the Selleck movie with questions about the date as well, but then I realize that the patent issue probably would have been ignored by third party gunsmiths.   The sale by Colt or others for the mass market would be a different legal issue.  Certainly, the Henry 44 round was available during the Civil War, and would have been easily used in a conversion before Colt was allowed to do so.  The S&W American was made starting in 1870, so the only reasonable 44 cartridge available in that movie's depiction would have been the Henry.  .

[St. George]

'Last Stand At Saber River' was a movie, not a factual documentary - it was designed purely for entertainment...

Try to factor that in, when you're wondering about time frames and actual history.

Verifiable references are what's needed to ascertain fact - not a trip through the 'John Ford Reference Library'...

'Woulda If They Coulda' is a plot device - it doesn't fly in reality.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!