Problem Sizing with New Winchester .45 brass ??

[Jefro]

Howdy all, got a 100 pieces of new Winchester brass, tumbled and lubed with Hornady One Shot. Ready to load with 2f and a 200gr Big Lube. Using a Hornady LNL with New Deminsion dies, last used with about 200 rounds of Starline and several other fired name brands including Winchester. After running the first round to the bullet seat-crimp die the bullet almost falls in the case. Whoa.... I know Winchester is thinner than Starline so I must need to adjust my dies. Adjust the expander die, run another one, not as bad but still no resistance as bullet is seated. Then after crimping, the case has a slight buckle just past the bullet base...hmm to much crimp.

Adjust the crimp die...adjust the expander die some more, same thing, no resistance as bullet is seated, and still need to adjust seat-crimp. Hmm....back way off the crimp and remove the epander die. Now the bullet has a little resistance when placed on the case, but after being started in the case the bullit has little or no resistance. I can now turn the bullet in the case.....adjust the crimp die till this stops.

Time to start checking some things. Start with bullet, 200gr BL dropped at .456, run through Star sizer .452 die...check. Remove dies and throughly clean...check. Grab a few used Staline, a Rem, and a Win piece of brass...check. Run them through, none will accept bullet without installing and tighten the expander die...check. All load without a problem, resistance on bullet good all the way to crimp. OK!!

Start running new Winchester brass again, through to the seat-crimp die, bullet has no resistance in case. Remove expander die again, bullet now has slight resistance on top of case. Still able to turn bullet by hand until crimped.

Starting to get a little frustrated. Hand pick about forty unsized bullets for uniform thick base.... Remove die from Star sizer....with bore mop in a drill, polish inside of die with Flitz.....clean die with Gun Butter. Then run bullets through sizer...all are a good .452.

Run those through without expander die...same thing, slight resistance on top of case, but once bullet is started and before crimp there is very little resistance.

Just a few notes......I have reloaded a few thousand .45 Starline without a problem, never buckled a case not even with 44/40, I know knock on wood. I even removed the spindle of the sizing die and ran a loaded bullit through to see if that made any difference. The only thing I didn't do was back the sizing die out enough to only size the case the bullit depth. I found this method works best with the Cowboy .45sp brass once fired.

Oh Yea, I was using 32gr of Schuetzen ffg with 1/16'' compression, so there's no way there was enough powder to expand the case.

Any ideas?? Everything worked fine with the used brass, even Winchester.

Thanks,
Jefro

[john boy]

Jefro - measure the ID of the Winchester cases.  You will probably find they are on the tight side for 452 bullets
This being said - you might want to visit Track of the Wolf and buy one or more expander plugs that will give the cases the expansion you need  ... http://www.trackofthewolf.com/%28S%28bt1e5l55w2lfly45s10cv245%29%29/categories/partDetail.aspx?catId=18&subId=128&styleId=433&partNum=DIE-462-EXP

Be sure to buy the LEE Neck Expander Die too ... http://www.trackofthewolf.com/%28S%28r4kwvu45ngau4wep0sctkgfq%29%29/popUps/popSingle.aspx?partNum=LEE-DIE-45-EX

Then they will seat better but the cases will be pregnent until you fireform them

[Jefro]

Thanks John Boy, I wish they were on the tight side, that's my problem, the brass won't size down enough to offer any resistance on the bullet. My concern is without a good seal around the bullet base, it could lead to contamination from the lube. Maybe once I shoot em they'll size better next time, all the used brass worked perfect, even Winchester.

Jefro

[fourfingersofdeath]

Have you got any cases that haven't been through the press yet so that you can check measure them?

Don't ya just love these little issues.

only a 100cases, mnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn! Maybe chuck em, life is too short.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I use mostly Winchester brass for 45 Colt, and I size all my bullets to .452. I have not bought any Winchester brass recently, maybe they have changed a setting. But to tell you the truth, with any brand of brass I have never noticed a problem seating .452 bullets. They all slide in pretty easily, the leverage on the handle of the press makes any resistance pretty unnoticeable. I too load on a Hornady Lock and Load AP, but I am using my old RCBS carbide dies for 45 Colt. I do seat my bullets with a Hornady die, but the sizing and expander dies are from my old RCBS set.

I really wouldn't worry about it too much, just give them a nice firm crimp and they will probably be fine.

[Jefro]

Thanks DJ, will do.

Jefro

[Delmonico]

I was taught that with a bullet seated and not crimped, if you put it point down on a hard surface and it will not move when you push hard on the back of the case it's fine for most use. 

[Adirondack Jack]

Did ya ever notice how factory ammo is so nice and shiny on the outside, no die marks?  I asked an ammo manufacturuer about this and he said they don't size new brass.  Now, if'n I was you, I'd be using a .45 ACP expander plug if possible (they tend to be a hair smaller than colt), OR, if ya have a spare .45 Colt expander, chuck that bad boy up somehow in a cordless drill (I used a mandrel made out of a drill bit wrapped with a bunch of paper towels once) and polish heck out of it with a dremel, felt wheel and compound.  You'll remove .0002 or so from the expander....

Now, ya gotta beware NOT to over-crimp em.  Too much crimp can bind at the top, causing the brass to "bow" outward, making the bullets loose enough to spin....  Play with the crimp a bit.  One exercise is to seat with no crimp and see if ya got any neck tension.  NOW adjust the crimp so it crimps without taking that tension away.  Go easy.

[Delmonico]

Now, ya gotta beware NOT to over-crimp em.  Too much crimp can bind at the top, causing the brass to "bow" outward, making the bullets loose enough to spin....  Play with the crimp a bit.

That's why I use a taper crimp, much better than a rolll crimp.

[Grapeshot]

You might try annealing the cases.  The brass may be work hardened to the point that they spring back more than previously fired cases resulting in poor neck tension on your bullets.  Or, you might want to try .454 inch bullets.

[Jefro]

No problem now that they are once fired, everything back to normal. Thanks

Jefro

[pony express]

Now that's odd that they will work as once fired, but not as new. I was gonna suggest to try a lee expander die, that's what I have to use with my .45 loads.(it's a 45ACP one)I get the same problem you do when I use the Lyman expander, but the lee one seems to be a slight taper all the way up, so I can adjust it just far enough to start the bullet. Just makes the case mouth a tapered shape, instead of a noticable step or flare, like the Lyman.

[Two Rivers Marshal]

I have ran into the same problem with Win brass in the past.  Recently bought 200 new casings, didn't think anything about it and sat down and primed all of them.  First one i loaded, dropped the powder in, and as i sat the bullet on the case, it fell in.  Grabbed another case, no powder, sat the bullet on it and it fell in.  This happened with home cast as well as store-bought bullets.  Pulled the decap pin out of the sizer die and ran em through.  No problems after that.  I am one that only sizes down to just past the end of the bullet rather than full length sizing.  While doing that, I remembered that I have gone through this process everytime I buy new Win brass.  Havent had a problem reloading after the initial firing.  Just have to remember to size them before you start.  On a side note, havent had this problem with star or rem brass. 

TRM

[sundance44`s]

 Working new brass can be a pain but I`ve found the Winchester brass a little easyer than new Starline or Remington 45`s .( thicker walled brass )
Life would be grand if all the brass we used was once fired .
I only neck size also , and run new brass through the sizeing die  twice before I prime it .
All my loading is on Lee equipment ..and I always crimp with a seprate Lee crimping die .
I have never had a problem with the .452 bullets falling in the cases , after 2 trips through the sizing die .
I was lucky when brass got so hard to find last year , I was sitting purdy on 1,000 pieces of Winchester 45 brass .
I hope Winchester hasn`t changed anything ......