New Rifle Ques...44spl, 44.40, or 45colt?

[Harley Starr]

This just proves that black powder is the thinkin' man's propellant, in whatever caliber.  Unlike the mass produced, soulless/smokeless grey stuff.  It's like the difference between driving a Toyota Camry off a mile-long assembly line staffed by robots, and bombing down the highway in a '72 muscle car that you restored and built yerself. 

And of course, .44-40 is the true vintage hot rod leader-of-the-pack. 

Now that's gospel right there.

[Cuts Crooked]

Iffin we're talkin' "vintage" the .45 has got it all over the 44-40. And when it comes to pure horse power....that puny lil .44 gets left in the dust.

[Jefro]

Iffin we're talkin' "vintage" the .45 has got it all over the 44-40. And when it comes to pure horse power....that puny lil .44 gets left in the dust.

What The .45 was never a rifle caliber, that's a modern day invention. I'll take the 44/40 any day. Of course I always liked Mopar

Jefro

[Fairshake]

As you can see this subject brings out the opinions. I started shooting CAS with a Marlin 38 spl rifle and two 45 Colt revolvers. One revolver was a Colt and the other a Taurus Gaucho. I have been reloading and casting my own lead since around 1970. I'm telling you all of this so that you will see that you also can move through the process. August is correct in loading the 38 spl. but I wanted a 45 Colt rifle and got one from Steve Young AKA Nate Kiowa Jones. I shot this combo for about 6 months and then purchased a set of USFA 45 Colt premiums. I always loaded with a full case of 2F and 250 gr bullets that's Warthog status. You might decide that you want to become as fast as Lead Dispencer and leave BP all together or you might decide to stay with it and become historically correct. If you decide to become that way then you will have a 1873 0r 1892 in 44-40 and revolvers to match. I have been shooting a 44-40 1892 for about 3 months now and it is a much faster clean up as opposed to the 45 Colt. The Colt is not bad if you stay with the full case loads. I just ordered another set of 44-40 revolvers from Long Hunter. I will now have both to chose from. Many a pard goes through what I just posted and it's what makes our sport fun. You will if you stay at it change from your first set of guns and rifles or shotguns. Don't be scared of loading or using any caliber that you chose. You do how ever need to look at cost and availibilty of them all. You will have no trouble selling any 45 Colt or 44-40 guns or supplies if you change over. That's also true of the 38 spl. Later David

[Delmonico]

Iffin we're talkin' "vintage" the .45 has got it all over the 44-40. And when it comes to pure horse power....that puny lil .44 gets left in the dust.

Decided something a long while ago, based on what we know today about bullet design and such, (bet this really starts things going,) but I think "as loaded in the time" the 44-40 would be a deadlier round in a handgun.  Reason, them sharp almost pointed bullets of the 45 Colt.  The 44WCF had a much flatter meplat on it because of the tube magazines.  Look at any modern designed cast hunting bullet, they all pretty well have as big a meplat and still maintain enough areodynamics to make it down range.

Heck Elmer didn't like the factory bullet and designed one that was much better even though he prefered the 44 Special for it's thicker cylinder walls.

[Grapeshot]

Many years ago, I purchases a Navy Arms Henry in .44 WCF.  I had never loaded for the .44 WCF, but when I fired my first box of Winchester Cowboy Ammo out of it, I was stunned by how clean the cases came out of the chamber.  It was even better when I loaded those cases with BP as there was no back blast to sent the soot into the action.  I graduated to a .44 WCF Yellowboy a couple of years later and never looked back.  I had started out with a '73 in .45 Colt, but when I changed over to Black Powder The .45 Colt rifle was retired and I now own a '73 in .44-40 and life is great.  Reloading is a snap, even using an RCBS Rock Chucker to size seat and crimp the .44 Cases.

[Deadguy]

Dang it, seeing all these posts mentioning or hinting that 45 Colt is messy or bad in rifles because of "blowback" into the action make me say GRRR.  Anneal your cases and you will have no problems with it!

[Fingers McGee]

I shoot a '66 in the only caliber that should be considered, the 44 WCF.  'n that settles that!

+1

I shoot 3 or 4 monthlies each month in addition to an annual or regional every other month or so.  I use a Hornady L-N-L with RCBS 44-40 dies.  Loading Desperado .428 200 gr RNFP over fffg BP or Pinnacle using the L-N-L powder measure.  Have no problems with crushing cases as long as I'm paying attention to what I'm doing.

Besides - It's historically correct - not that I'm a caliber Nazi or anything like that   

FM

[FriscoCounty]

+1

I shoot 3 or 4 monthlies each month in addition to an annual or regional every other month or so.  I use a Hornady L-N-L with RCBS 44-40 dies.  Loading Desperado .428 200 gr RNFP over fffg BP or Pinnacle using the L-N-L powder measure.  Have no problems with crushing cases as long as I'm paying attention to what I'm doing.

Besides - It's historically correct - not that I'm a caliber Nazi or anything like that   

FM

Not for the 1866, it was only ever chambered for the .44 RF (AKA .44 Henry).  It was the 1873 that was originally chambered for .44 WCF (.44-40). 

The 1873 was chambered in .22 short, .22 long, .32-20, .38-40, and .44-40.  The .38-40 model was introduced in 1879, the .32-40 in 1882, and the .22 version in 1888. 720,000 were produced overall.  About 19,000 were produced in .22.

[Fingers McGee]

Not for the 1866, it was only ever chambered for the .44 RF (AKA .44 Henry).  It was the 1873 that was originally chambered for .44 WCF (.44-40). 

IINM, there were some '66s that were chambered in 44-40 - not many; but some, and there were conversions done from the 44RF to 44-40.  There were NEVER any in 45Colt.

FM

[Driftwood Johnson]

IINM, there were some '66s that were chambered in 44-40 - not many; but some, and there were conversions done from the 44RF to 44-40.  There were NEVER any in 45Colt.

Not according to The Winchester Handbook by George Madis. The '66 was only factory chambered for the 44 Henry Rimfire round and a few were chambered for a centerfire version of the same round. Many '66s were later converted to other cartridges, but the carrier on the original 66s was too short to handle the longer 44-40 round. Modern replicas of the '66 have a slightly longer frame in the area of the carrier than the originals, so they can handle cartridges like the 44-40 and the 45 Colt. But the carriers on the originals were too short to be able to accomodate those rounds without some major surgery. It would have made more sense to just buy a '73 if you wanted to be able to fire the 44-40.

[Fingers McGee]

I guess I'm mistaken then about 44-40.  Mayhaps it was another 44 caliber centerfire cartridge??

[Delmonico]

I guess I'm mistaken then about 44-40.  Mayhaps it was another 44 caliber centerfire cartridge??

The 44 Henry Flat Centerfire, same thing as the 44 S&W except it has a flat point bullet for the tube magazine.  I've seen examples of the round, just don't have a picture because it was years ago.

[FriscoCounty]

Now that I've posted that the 1866 was only chambered in .44 Henry RF, I have found the following extract in another posting:


From THE HISTORY OF WINCHESTER FIREARMS, 1866-1980, 5th Ed., by Duncan Barnes;

page 12;
"Factory records indicate , however, that during later years occasional small lots of M/66 firearms were manufactured; the record of the last firearm assembled bears the date August 1898.  In 1891 1,020 M/66 component parts, on hand for many years, were used in the assembly of rifles chambered for the 44 "Henry" center fire cartridge and shipped to a firm in Brazil."

So, it looks like between 1991 and 1898 1,020 model 1866 rifles were 'manufactured' in CF.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Madis agrees, 1020 were converted to a centerfire version of the 44 Henry Rimfire and shipped to Brazil in 1891. That's what I said earlier.

[Delmonico]

Madis agrees, 1020 were converted to a centerfire version of the 44 Henry Rimfire and shipped to Brazil in 1891. That's what I said earlier.

And I explained the cartridge.

[Wills Point Pete]

 Well, I vote for matching your revolvers so you only have one batch of ammo to remember. When I switched to black powder I was alarmed over the blowback monster stories I kept reading on the wire for us .45 Colt users. So I started taking precautions. I took a batch of cases and turned the necks thinner, like on the .44WCF, then I also annealed a batch. I loaded heavy charges under 250 grain bullets and had very minor blowback. Case life wasn't the greates with those thinned cases so I blew that off.

To make a long story short, as long as I stuck with the 250 grain bullets I could go all the way down to around the old Army load of 28 grains of powder with or without annealing. After a shoot I clean the bore of my rifle and then spray the inside of the action with Moose Milk, let it soak for a few minutes and then blow it out with the compressor or canned air for the keyboard. Every year or so I strip her down and go through it with a toothbrush but I don't lose sleep over it. The key seems to the 250 grain bullets, sized to around .454 and a fairly soft alloy. If the ally is too hard and the bullet too small we get gas blowing past the bullet before the case has fully expanded so we get lots of blowback.

It's funny, Dick Dastardly manages to shoot black in his .44 Extra Long Russian and never complains about blowback from those magnum cases which are as thick-walled as .45s. The key is heavy, soft bullets. Those bullets are also safer at the shoots, hard bullets shatter and bounce fragments all over from hell to breakfast while the soft slugs just flatten out and fall.

This is not to say that .44WCF and .38WFC don't work as well, they do. But you just haven't lived 'til you've stuffed the wrong cartridge into that rifle at a shoot.

[Cuts Crooked]

 

But you just haven't lived 'til you've stuffed the wrong cartridge into that rifle at a shoot.

Amen pard! Amen!!!!

[Driftwood Johnson]

But you just haven't lived 'til you've stuffed the wrong cartridge into that rifle at a shoot.

I have been playing this game since 2001. All my Cowboy rifles (4 of them) are chambered for 44-40. Two of them are over 100 years old, so 45 Colt was just not an option. My pistols (more than I can remember right now) have always been chambered for 45 Colt. I ain't stuffed a 45 into my rifles yet, knock wood. Ya just have to pay attention at the loading table.

Knock Wood!

[Cuts Crooked]

I ain't stuffed a 45 into my rifles yet, knock wood.

Knock Wood!

What's that old saying? "There are those who have, and there are those who will"