New Rifle Ques...44spl, 44.40, or 45colt?

[Cemetery]

I'm hoping to get a rifle this winter, and since I'm starting to do more wholly black, I'm thinking of getting a '66 in something that begins with a 4.  Currently I'm using .38spl.

Now keep in mind, that I haven't started reloading yet, but hope to start this winter as well.

I'm told bottle neck cartridges are best, but am told 44.40 is a frustrating, and expensive proposition.  Especially if you shoot up to 4 times a month.  And have been advised not to learn reloading with 44.40.

I was thinking of 45colt, but have heard how bad blowback can be.  Have Lightning in 45colt which give me more blowback than law allows, hence, I haven't shot it in over a year.

A shooting friend recommends 44spl, he doesn't get any blowback outta his '66. 

Any pro's and con's?

Suggestions?

[Shotgun Franklin]

The .44-40 is historicly correct and not that much harder to reload. It might take just a bit more tinkering to learn to reload but it's not a really big deal. I'll bet you'll find several people here using it.
.45 Colt can be loaded down to .44 Spl levels. .45 Colt does have more blowby with light loads and light bullets but it just means you have a slightly dirtier case and chamber. Blowby in a handgun caliber isn't going to cause much, if any long term problems. I've been using the .45 Colt in rifles for 13 years.
.44 Spl is a short, not quite, blackpowder case. I have less experience with it. If you shoot .44 Spl revolvers I can't think of a reason not to use it.

IMO, the biggest 'concern' with any of the three would be , does it match my/your revolver loads? I use a .45 Colt rifle because I really like that same round in my revolvers. One round used for all three guns is a real advantage.
And yes, I on ocassion use my .45s for hunting and as carry guns. I've only had a .45 fail me once and that was a poor bullet design.

[Jefro]

Howdy  Cemetery, IMHO the 44/40 is tough to beat. As for reloading I haven't had any problems. Use Hornady One Shot case lube and don't over bell the mouth. Although I prefer Hornady Custom-Grade™ New Dimension dies, I'm using Lee because that's all I could get at the time. However the Lee dies have worked great so I see no need to change. Have someone at your local club help you get started if needed. Good Luck.

Jefro

[Cuts Crooked]

This one comes up every whip stitch so I keep this thread on file fer y'all: http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,6290.0.html Read it and make a descision base on what you really want the most.

Bottom line fer me is that the .45 is less of a problem in multiple guns chambered fer the same round...those 44-40s seem to be problamatic on that score.

[Dick Dastardly]

What pistols do you have?  If you can use the same ammo in both rifles and pistols, it's a bonus.  Ammo management is easier, reloading is easier and component procurement is more uniform.  Whichever way you go, there's a Big Lube® bullet design for your black powder needs.

I happen to shoot 44 Extra Long Russian (44 Magnum) in both rifles and pistols for many matches.  I do like using the same pistol caliber ammo in all my guns.  FWIW, I chose Browning 92 rifles.

Don't fear loading 44-40 brass.  Once your dies are properly set up it's no more difficult to load 44-40 than any other pistol caliber cartridges.  Take your time setting up your dies, load clean brass and get a good reloading manual.

Oh, and one more thing. . . WELCOME TO THE DARK SIDE!!!

DD-DLoS

[Cemetery]

What pistols do you have?  WELCOME TO THE DARK SIDE!!!

DD-DLoS

I have a pair of Old Army's currently getting worked on, and since I've wanted a '66 for some time, I figured I'd get something to match.

Currently, the .38spl's I get loaded for me, only carry 20 grains of GOEX.

And ya know, it's gotten to the point, that if I can't shoot wholly black, why get outta bed?  

Last time I shot smokeless, I felt like I had bugs crawlin' on me...

[Blackpowder Burn]

I have 2 SAA's, an original Model 92, a Model 73 and a Lightning all in 44-40.  I shoot Holy Black and load the same ammunition for all of them on a Dillon 650 with absolutely no problems.  Other than using a light spritz of Horandy One Shot or similar lube before starting to load, they are no more or less trouble than any other cartridge to load.

That being said, I also have a pair of SAA's and a Marlin 1894 Cowboy in 45LC that I shoot with black and have no issues with either of them.

Of course, all of my ammo is of the "warthog" persuasion, so there is plenty of pressure to seal the chambers!  

It's all a matter of what you like.  I tend to gravitate to the 44-40's because they are historically correct in the rifles.

[44caliberkid]

I shoot a '66 in the only caliber that should be considered, the 44 WCF.  'n that settles that!

[August]

You're really asking two questions.  One, what caliber rifle would be cool to  get?  Two, what caliber would be good to learn loading with?

If you'll accept that parsing of your situation, let me consider question number two to begin.

For many reasons, .38 special is an excellent cartridge to learn the reloading process with.  There are many available bullets, dies are well standardized, dimensions are modern enough that there is good agreement among manufacturers about them, components are (relatively) inexpensive, and the cartridge is inherently accurate -- working well with a wide variety of components.  (one of the things that makes the older, WCF, cartridges difficult is that there has been a wide variety of dimensions applied to those loadings over the past 140 years).

Therefore, may I suggest you go another season with the .38 and begin loading your own, black powder rounds.  Dasterdly Dick carries a mould for the .38 snakebite bullet that carries lots of lube for trouble-free matches.  The smoke you get from a black powder round is in large part the result of lube burning along with the powder.  So, the .38 is perfectly legal, ethical, and historically correct for black powder competition.  Stay with that round for a while and learn to load it yourself is my suggestion.  It makes enough smoke and boom that warthogs don't complain (too much) about it.

Now, on to question number one.  Most people in my neck of the woods who've gotten "serious" about black powder are shooting the 38-40.  Everything that makes the 44-40 good for black powder is enhanced with the 38-40 cartridge.  It is even more tapered for better sealing (never take my '73 down all the way), it feeds like greased lightning through a lever gun, and it tends to be a bit easier to reload than the 44-40 because of its smaller opening makes the neck a bit stronger.  I'm convinced it is the best choice for strictly black powder use.  People will argue with that observation, I'm sure.  But, they're misguided.  The 38-40 is, as you probably know, a .40 caliber cartridge.

So, run .38s of your own making for another season.  If you're still thinking an original Winchester CF cartridge might make your life complete a year from now, get a '73 in 38-40.

However, the .38 special is probably a better, overall choice for black and smokeless in the long run.  You're right to stay away from the Colt's cartridge (people will argue about that, too, but they're misguided).  The .44 is hard to find in a rifle, hard to find in pistols, and it costs as much as the WCF cartridges with none of the advantages of those, excellent rounds.

There is always a strong, secondary market for rifles and pistols in .38/.357 and 38-40.  Other cartridges, not so much.  So, if you get one of those and decide to move on, you'll have a lot less financial trouble doing so.

[Buffalow Red]

well i have had one of each if your going to shoot black powder get the 44-40 & you wont regret it
sure the brass is a few dollars more but no headakes

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I tend to agree with August. Since you are already shooting 38s, learn to reload with 38s first before venturing to a cartridge like 44-40. The very first cartridge I learned to reload was 45 Colt and I was glad that I did. When I started shooting CAS I had a pair of Vaqueros chambered for 45 Colt and an original Winchester 1892 chambered in 44WCF (44-40). I decided to start reloading the 45s first and was glad I did. 45 cases are more robust and can take more abuse than 44-40 cases can. In addition, carbide dies are available for 45 Colt, there are no carbide dies available for 44-40. It has to do with the configuration of the shell. Learning to load on 45 Colt first taught me the basics of loading and I did not have to deal with lubing my cases. Once I had 45 Colt under my belt I moved on to 44-40. I found out it was a bit 'fussier' to load than 45 Colt. Not really difficult in the long run, but I was glad I had started with an easier cartridge. The main thing about loading 44-40 is not to slam it against the base of the sizing die. If the case sits a tiny bit off center in the shell holder or shell plate, and slams into the butt end of the die, it will probably crumple and have to be discarded. The sturdier 45 Colt brass will just laugh off the blow. So right away, I learned to go a bit slower and be a bit more careful when loading 44-40.

There can be issues with getting good crimps with 44-40 too. It all depends on the diameter of the bullet your rifling dictates you use and how much interference there is in the case as the bullet is seated. I have several old rifles that have the 19th Century standard of .427 for groove diameter. I have one new rifle that has a .429 groove diameter. Before I bought the .429 rifle, I loaded everything with .427 bullets and had no problems. I found that .429 bullets were a tad too big and were giving me chambering problems in one of my rifles. These days I have bumped up to .428, for the .429 Henry, and they seem to work well in my '73 and my 100 year old Winchester and Marlin with their .427 groove diameters.

Like I said, spend the winter months learning to reload with 38 Special. Dies and groove diameters are standardized and are available in carbide, so you don't need to lube your cases. Carbide dies only cost around $10 more than steel dies and are well worth the extra money. Once you have loading, powder measurement, and crimping down with 38 Sp, it will be easier to learn to load the slightly 'fussier' 44-40 if you so choose. And handling bigger bullets and components is easier than those 'tiny' 38s.

As for 44 Special, it is a fine cartridge, I reload it for a bunch of revolvers. It is about the same as loading 45 Colt. The case is robust, and carbide dies are available. It is easy to crimp. You will get the same amount of blowback with 44 Sp as you will with 45 Colt, because the cases are just as robust.

[Cemetery]

Driftwood Johnson:

I'm starting to lean towards 45colt, since I have a pair of Old Army's coming, and at some point, I'd like to get a pair of conversion cylinders for them, (in NJ with it's One Gun a Month Law, conversions means no hassle with getting 4 guns outta 2), so this way, I could have revolvers and rifle in the same caliber.

Also, as mentioned earlier by a commenter, it seems if I load those 45colt's up, cause if I ain't gonna, then I might as well stay with 38spl right?m, there would be enough pressure to seal the chamber, and reduce blowback right?

[Cuts Crooked]

And a couple of quick reminders to the 44-40 lovers: http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,29087.0.html
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,27684.0.html and anyone considering them should read those threads too!

[J.D. Yellowhammer]

Cuts, didja havta put that second link in? 
Despite any info in the links, I really enjoy my .44 WCF's.  I like loadin 'em and shootin 'em. 

[Deadeye Dick]

Yellowhammer,
Me too! I wouldn't have any other than the good ol 44-40. I have a 73 Winchester, Ruger old model Vaquero and a Ruger Blackhawk  44-40 / 44mag. convertible. Sure on the rare occasion I crush a case, but it's not that much fussier than the other cal's. It is a good idea to slug your barrel to be sure you load the correct dia. bullet. The barrels on all three of my guns slug to .429.
Deadeye Dick 

[Jefro]

Driftwood Johnson:

I'm starting to lean towards 45colt, since I have a pair of Old Army's coming, and at some point, I'd like to get a pair of conversion cylinders for them, (in NJ with it's One Gun a Month Law, conversions means no hassle with getting 4 guns outta 2), so this way, I could have revolvers and rifle in the same caliber.

Also, as mentioned earlier by a commenter, it seems if I load those 45colt's up, cause if I ain't gonna, then I might as well stay with 38spl right?m, there would be enough pressure to seal the chamber, and reduce blowback right?

Howdy again Cemetary, 45 revolvers with a 44/40 rifle is a great combination, but I understand keeping to one caliber for reloading. There is a big difference on how the 45 runs compared to the 44/40. I know there are plenty of folks shooting 45 and BP with nary a problem, however there are just as many cussing and fussing about it. I know when we had our first state BP match there were quite a few pards having a tough time keeping their rifles running, even with BLubes. I had a spray bottle of moose milk at the unloading table to flush out my girl friends Lighting revolvers after each stage. By the end of the day it became my job to flush out the 45 rifles folks were having problems with. Now I know this was the first time shooting BP for most of the ones having problems, just trying to give you a heads. One friend couldn't even make through one stage, he had to polish the carrier and smooth some edges even though it had an action job. Not trying to change your mind, but be prepared to make some modifications. There is a good thread in The Dark Arts  on "Making BP .45s work in long gunz'', and another on "Annealing Brass". There are several other good threads I found using the 'search' feature. Good Luck.
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,6290.0.html
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,7879.0.html

Jefro

[Cuts Crooked]

JD,
YUP! I wanted to show everyone that the 44-40 is NOT the "be all, end all solution" to BP in lever gunz. Indeed it really carries it's own unique set of problems, from bore size problems, though reloading problems, clear into primer problems.

I probably should have put in the link to "45s in lever guns" too, but Jefro did that fer me!

[FriscoCounty]

I currently shoot .44spcl.  I am switching to .44-40 only because I suffer from that insanity of wanting to go 'historically correct'.  The 1873 was originally chambered for .44 WCF.  Colt produced a heck of a lot of model Ps in .44-40.  Lastly, .44-40 does do black powder well.

That said, if I were to stay with my .44spcl open tops or switch to S&W No. 3s, I would switch to .44 Russian and get an Cimarron 1866 in .44 special and fit with it with the .44 Russian carrier from the Smith Shop (http://www.thesmithshop.com/cbs45.html).  The .44 Russian cartridge is the precursor to the .44 Special, and it is a very accurate round.  It uses less powder than the .44 special or .44-40, particularly in black powder (20-23 grains vs 35-40 grains).  Lastly, it allows for the use of the same cartridge in both pistol and rifle (like .44-40).

There is nothing wrong with the .38-40.  It is a .40 caliber bullet, so you will be shooting different cartridges in your pistols and rifle, until you get a pair of .38-40 (.38 WCF) pistols.  It does use a heavy load of black powder(32-40), if you decide to go that way.  Which I assume you might since you posted in the Darksider's Den.

[Noz]

I shoot a '66 in the only caliber that should be considered, the 44 WCF.  'n that settles that!

Yup.

'Course the 44-40 is not correct in the 66 as the round was developed for the 73.

[J.D. Yellowhammer]

JD,
YUP! I wanted to show everyone that the 44-40 is NOT the "be all, end all solution" to BP in lever gunz. Indeed it really carries it's own unique set of problems, from bore size problems, though reloading problems, clear into primer problems.

This just proves that black powder is the thinkin' man's propellant, in whatever caliber.  Unlike the mass produced, soulless/smokeless grey stuff.  It's like the difference between driving a Toyota Camry off a mile-long assembly line staffed by robots, and bombing down the highway in a '72 muscle car that you restored and built yerself. 

And of course, .44-40 is the true vintage hot rod leader-of-the-pack.