Deerskin rifle bag.

[ChuckBurrows]

I would love to try to do quillwork but living in Australia I am yet to find a source that will send quills over here.The book includes step by step instructions & it looks just as easy as beadwork.

Howdy Feathers - have you tried Crazy Crow (www.crazycrow.com) or Moscow Hide and Fur (www.hideandfur.com) for quills?
If they won't ship them find out if there are any problems on your end I'll be glad to get some for you and mail them - you can PM for further info...
I'm experienced in doing both quillwork and beadwork and quillwork is not as easy as beadwork - even when not starting from scratch. It's one of the reasons quillwork virtually disappeared amongst most tribes once beads became widely available and less expensive.

John again with respect and not trying to be contentious either and also being helpful when possible. As noted like you I have examined several thousand pieces of original beadwork, including the collections at Browning and Cody (haven't been east of the Rockies since 1971) and have had access to several private collections over the years (unfortunately some of this will never see the light of day so to speak):
1) Black - well I guess it all depends on what one calls black, but the black beadwork I've seen (most of it on Cheyenne work) was black and not blue - maybe not coal black but still black with at times a greenish or brownish tinge. Then again especially in the pre-1860 work I prefer the colors are different than the modern made widely used Czech beads which in all color tend to be more "brilliant", rather than the more muted tones of the pre-1860 beads and even more so than most of the pre-1900. Depending on time period and later tribal preferences color choices changed - in the the earliest days blue in various colors, and white were by far the most popular - the L & C notes mention blue as being the most popular.
2) We may have to agree to disagree on aging, but seed/pound beads (which are generally colored with various metals or metallic salts i.e cobalt, iron, copper, etc.) can and will change color over time due mostly to UV sunlight - one of the classic cases is the manganese glass of the late 1800's which will turn lavender when exposed to sunlight. Sunlight could in fact be one reason for black not looking so black as well as the use of the various metals for making it which weren't always the purest. For making black glass at the time, iron, lead, and/or carbon were often used. All of those can turn to a dark brown/black over time.
"Chemical" staining (blood for example) can also cause color change and/or surface texture especially on opaque glass. Blood for instance will etch the glass surface as will acids such as lemon juice and vinegar if left on long enough - usually several hours. My comments are based not only on examination of old pieces but in trying to emulate the look - these pieces though were always well worn/used pieces and not the more elaborate "ceremonial" or dress up pieces.

Anyway Rod good luck and as John noted any good tight woven wool will work. One thing I do is full the wool - wash in hot water and dry warm to hot, take out while still lightly damp, stretch it out and brush with a stiff hair brush in one direction only - this will tighten and thicken the weave making it even better for beading. Still I do prefer the real McCoy, but it is not cheap even on sale.
Another option for beading is tight woven canvas, the Blackfoot for one often beaded their shirts strips on canvas in the later days. In fact when I was learning to bead back in the late 1960's many of the old ladies I learned from thought I was crazy since I wanted to use braintan - cloth they said was much easier and only a crazy man would prefer it.

[Forty Rod]

Damn 4T, ya should a tolt me you were goin to OCB, I woulda gone with ya and helped you harass the ladies there. Got lotta cool stuff don't they?

curley

Didn't know I was going until I pulled into the parking lot.  Lots of good stuff, lots of 'tourist trap crap', too.  Wanna buy the place? It's my understanding that it's for sale.

Next time I go over I'll give you a call and we'll make it a real raid.

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

     Chuck Burrows, your knowledge overwhelms me at times, it's a pleasure to read your post, they're all packed with such great information, I know this is appreciated by all that read it. thanks for all the help you have given all of us over time.

       Regards

    tEN wOLVES  

[Kid Terico]

TW You should know, I taught Chuck every thing he knows.  Chuck like I told u when talking to you eariler. You sure know your History. KT

[JohnR]

Chuck - changing the subject slightly, have you been to the little museum at the St Labre Indian School in Ashland?  It's been 20 years now since I last visited.  Small, especially compared to Cody or the Heye Foundation collections, but a lot of really neat one off stuff.  I've been to Cody and Browning as well and I frankly think Cody does a better job than any of them with the display of the various collections.

I agree with you on bead colors - the earlier more muted colors are my preference.  I almost never use Czech beads other than the Charlottes - there are a few colors that are ok.  I still prefer old stock Italian 4/o for my work, but my stash has gotten so low I'm using the German beads mostly now.  I love the colors in the French beads and used to sell them as well as stash them.  I find them a little harder to work with because of the great disparity of shapes between colors and they were never popular with contemporary native beadworkers.

Blue vs black - ok, we're both right on this one I think.  You mentioned Cheyenne beadwork as an example of black being used.  What I called cobalt is what is called Cheyenne Blue on the Crazy Crow website and that is obviously blue although very dark.  I have about a kilo of old Italian 4/0 that are much darker even than those, and easily mistaken for black.  At any rate, I think we'd both agree that the black beads available today are too bright for old style beadwork.

I guess what you and I call aging differs.  I believe I mentioned earlier using a diluted muriatic acid solution which of course would be similar to lime juice or blood etching.  Anything acidic will do that but that really isn't aging in my book.  The glazed surface on beads is very durable and stays glossy in normal use.  But to each his own - I've seen "reproduction" pieces done entirely with matte surfaced beads and thought they were pretty ugly.  There is no doubt that a few colors will fade in UV, but I believe most are reasonably colorfast.

While I haven't done a lot of quillwork, I've done some, and I agree, it's much more difficult than beadwork.  Even wrapped on rawhide slats require very nimble fingers.  But it's fun to try.  

I've had a similar experience with the Indian ladies re beading on canvas vs braintan.   But I've also bought some of the best brain tan from Indian ladies, especially the Cree in Canada.  Lazy stitch done on canvas is just too even and perfect, but I think any kind of applique or sewn beadwork is easier on canvas or other cloth.  I just never developed a knack for sewn beadwork on hides.

Wish I'd known of you when I lived in Colorado Springs - I'd have visited..........

[Curley Cole]

OCB up for sale, Oh No tell me it isn't so....I know since the husband passed it has been a hard go, but there is really no compititon on what they sell Next closest would be Eagles Nest in Upland, and well , you mentioned tourist trap...

Can you imagine me and 4Trod runnin an Indian Trade store? whoa..hoe....man o man. We could get GunClick Rick as our counter man....heheheh Boy have I got plans..

dreams are abounding tonite.....beads, indian jewelry leather, more beads, books, hey we could add a cowboy counter..oh the possiblities.

nite nite.
curley

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

TW You should know, I taught Chuck every thing he knows.  Chuck like I told u when talking to you eariler. You sure know your History. KT

    KT, thanks pard, I guess history is something one gets as one gets older, seems these days I have more time to think about the past, for the most part they were good times and great memories.

              tEN 

   Curley, I think you Forty Rod and Gun Slick Rick would make one heck of operating team, selling beads and what have ya, like you say there wouldn't be any competition, I'd like to see that, we're losing too many great stores like this, it would be nice to see it stay alive, there's a need for Indian beads and trappings.

         tEN wOLVES 

[GunClick Rick]

I'm in.and i'm cheap..I'd make a great cigar store indian Chief Thundermoon at your service

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8SowFKX3ek&feature=PlayList&p=EA5E170C67249783

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VqoxOcEqpk&feature=related

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

Rick, these video's are outstanding, the music and pictures are fantastic, those old pictures showing some of the bead work that was used and the clothing they wore, I'll be coming back to these offend, Thanks for sharing this with us pard.


                     tEN wOLVES 

[Professor Marvel]

Interesting,so if a feller wants to look for work that is original what would the untrained eye look for under the magnifying glass as far as seed beads?These were found a mile east of where i live,feels like soapstone and the shell ones,can't search there anymore,father in law found these around the late 60s i believe..I restrung some of them.The dark green disk one i found when workin for the road dept,in the ground under some old sidewalk we tore up,i have no idea what it is or made of,it was about 2 inches in the dirt where i was raking and shoveling.Disregard the little turquoise ones of course..

Greetings Monsiuer Rick -
What you have there, appears to my untrained eye, to be identical to partially finished Heishi which is still made today  in various Pueblos in New Mexico. My Lovely Spousal Unit and I  once spent a pleasant afternoon chatting with a Grandmother at her home/shop in Santo Domingo Pueblo. She had strung "rough" that looked just like that, cut and drilled from stone and shells, and was grinding the strung stuff on a grinder.  good info can be found here:
http://www.collectorsguide.com/fa/fa041.shtml

yhs
Prof Marvel

[GunClick Rick]

Well soapstone is all over the place east of here.Kaweah Oaks preseve for one. And then there is rocky hill where we would find it and make pipe bowels.

http://www.kaweahoaks.com/html/visitor_hints.htm#Rules

[Forty Rod]

I'm in.and i'm cheap..I'd make a great cigar store indian Chief Thundermoon at your service

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8SowFKX3ek&feature=PlayList&p=EA5E170C67249783

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VqoxOcEqpk&feature=related

No offense, but are you sure that mooning the customers or 'thundering' at them is gonna be good for business?

Seriouly, I couldn't think of better people to go into business with and spend our time starving to death with.

[Forty Rod]

Well soapstone is all over the place east of here.Kaweah Oaks preseve for one. And then there is rocky hill where we would find it and make pipe bowels.

http://www.kaweahoaks.com/html/visitor_hints.htm#Rules

Maybe I'll try to find a chunk the right size and give pipe carving a shot.  Did it once when I was in high school, but turned it into a horse for a girlfriend.   She said she liked it, but I think it looked like a pot-bellied pig.  She broke up with me shortly after that.

[Curley Cole]

4Trod

fine words. I can see them coming into the store and finding 3 wizzened up bodies in the corner of the back. One short balding guy with his hands stuck over his eyes. Another bigger (supposedly better lookin and more litterary..) died with hiz hands stuck over his ears, and on the far side of the room, yup there be this "peged-legged short indian with his pants around his ankles with something that looked like soapstone stuck to his arse, and a wooden flute stuck to his face...........They said the first 2 died of shock, and the third guy died due to lack of an audience...

Manoman, ifn I could afford it I would front this business in a heart bead...and start sellin sunglasses and ear protection. FOR COWBOY ACTION SHOOTIN, OF COURSE...

happy turkey day my friends...
curley

[Forty Rod]

Well, I have  'progress' report that's more of a 'NO progress' report.

Right up front I gotta tell you that my respect for folks who do good bead work just shot right up off the scale.

I started in yesterday and by 4:00 PM today I had ripped it out and started over four times.  I saved all the beads but I'm running out of thread.

I'm not dedicated to this project as such, but I'm stubborn enough to finish it and make it look passable at the very least.

At least I didn't tackle building a railroad first.  Ripping out track would be a genuine PITA.

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

           Stay with it Forty Rod, you'll get there pard 


                        tEN 

[Gun Butcher]

  Forty, just remember that all of us who do beadwork have ripped out our fair share of stitching.  It comes with the territory my friend. Hang in there, it will come together and you will have a piece that you can be proud of.

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

        This thread was split, after yesterdays heated discussion, GSR if you would like to post your fetish again go right ahead.


                               Regards

                           tEN wOLVES

[GunClick Rick]

He don't know me vewy well do hee baaaaa--aaaa-aaaa---aaaaa



  OOPS!

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Hang in there, pard. I'm looking forward to the final result. After all this excitement, the finished item will be worth the wait.