Deerskin rifle bag.

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

hOWDY fORTY

         I just leave my leather in the coffee dye for 24 hours, but there is no rule to this, I just liked the color I got after 24 hours, and when it was dried, I didn't get any rub off, I conditioned my leather afterwords with Lexoil Conditioner, but I'm not sure you would need it on deer skin, if your skin dries and is real stiff you might want to consider it. But make sure it won't mess up the hide first, try it on a piece of scrap that was dyed too, IMHO

       Regards

    tEN wOLVES  

[Mogorilla]

I have done both sueded leather and deer skin in coffee.  On the sued, I left it in the coffee about 48 let it dry and rubbed it over a beam to return the nape and softness.   Didn't do anything after.  Colour has held, but it hasn't gotten extremely wet since either.  The deer skin I did (check for a leather post by me called-My botas had to get a job) I soaked for ~36 hours but had isopropyl alcohol in the coffee, and a tablespoon of brown alcohol based dye.  (total volume was in the two gallon range as I soaked an entire deer hide.)  I later rubbed a little neatsfoot oil on it.  it seems to be set.

[Forty Rod]

Okay, I pulled it out of the coffee and it's almost perfect.....except where I got rubber cement on it and didn't find it until too late.  Any secrets here for getting the white off?  If I can get it off, what are the chances that I can spot stain the places where it was?

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

Okay, I pulled it out of the coffee and it's almost perfect.....except where I got rubber cement on it and didn't find it until too late.  Any secrets here for getting the white off?  If I can get it off, what are the chances that I can spot stain the places where it was?

   Forty, I use one of my wife's emery boards or a little sand paper, and carefully sand it off, when you get it off just dab some more coffee dye on it and let it dry, be careful not to sand too hard, you don't want to get it too thin, I've even used my finger nail to scrape excess cement off.

                   Hope this helped

                   tEN wOLVES 

[Forty Rod]

It's still awful wet.  When it dries I'll give it a try.  I can't believe how well it turned out just following what I learned on this board. Very old and used looking without being too old or too used. 

I'm going to take a crack at some beading, too.  Not loomed but free hand directly on the side of the bag using what I've heard called 'lazy stitch'.  A lady who is 3/4 Indian says she refuses to call anything that take sixty to eighty hours of detailed finger and eye work "lazy" anything.  She called it 'lean stitching'.

I also have some hair pipe / pony bead /  crow bead /  tin cone work I'll add to it when I'm ready.

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

   That sounds great Forty, be sure to post pictures when you're done, can't wait to see it, I like these natural dyes too, and just about use them for everything these days.

        Regards

       tEN wOLVES 

[Forty Rod]

A comment on something I have discovered:

I have been searching the net for ideas on decorations for this scabbard.  I have gone to bead sites, leather working sites, Native American sites, history sites, craftsman sites, etc.

First, there is precious little out there.

Second, most of what is out there, even on Native American sites, is what I would call 'tourist trap garbage'.  Cheap Chinese loomed beadwork, rabbit fur, machine sewn, poorly designed and made, phony-looking crud.  It seems in many cases if it is assembled by Native Americans, even though the individual pieces come from whatever source they can find, it is advertised as 'Native American made'.   The prices on this stuff is exorbitant for what it is.

Third, there is a small amount of very fine-looking, quality merchandise out there for very little more money than the garbage.  Much of it is genuine Native made, but some is made by people whose claim to fame is that they have studied what tiny amount is available and made top notch items.

In comparison to the work I see on this site, most of what is for sale in the rest of the world isn't worth the time and effort required to find it, save those few glittering examples I mentioned above.  I don't know how many of you have done such a search, but I can tell you we have some top of the line craftsmen and women in our hobby / sport.

I'm proud to know many of you personally, still more from this wire, and still others by reputation.

Thanks to you all, I have decided on the final work to be done on the scabbard.  It will never measure up with what I see here, but it will beat hell out of the majority of junk I've found on my searches, and it will be MINE!

[Professor Marvel]

A comment on something I have discovered:

I have been searching the net for ideas on decorations for this scabbard.  I have gone to bead sites, leather working sites, Native American sites, history sites, craftsman sites, etc.

First, there is precious little out there.

Greetings FortyRod

for ideas you might start here:
http://www.nebraskahistory.org/sites/mnh/bandolier_bags/ojibwe-late.htm
http://www.native-languages.org/beadwork.htm
http://www.thunderbaymuseum.com/beadwork.htm

http://www.prairieedge.com/  (I know some of the folks that sell their stuff there)

http://www.matoska.com/ciha_sioux_beadwork.htm
http://www.matoska.com/siouxlazystitch.htm

this book is pretty good
http://www.powells.com/biblio?isbn=9780486420899

Muzzleloader magazine has a series of books (collections) that have quite a few
great photos of beadwork, but I don't have access to all my books just now...
http://www.muzzleloadermag.com/index.html

hopes this helps get you started
yhs
prof marvel

[Forty Rod]

Lots of good stuff there, Prof.  Thanks. 

I don't know how I forgot Prairie Edge, because I've done business with them before.  They had a link to the Sioux trading Post and there I found the beads I've been looking for.  Lots of brain candy there, and on the other sites, to keep me occupied for a long time.

[ChuckBurrows]

You can find pics of lots of original beadwork here...........
http://www.splendidheritage.com/nindex.html

http://anthro.amnh.org/anthropology/databases/north_public/north_public.htm

http://www.bbhc.org/collections/bbhc/index_pim.cfm?CFID=28900323&CFTOKEN=20285933

[Forty Rod]

Well...looks like you folks have given this old buck schoolmarm some homework.  Thanks for the help.

[Curley Cole]

4Trod

First, ya oughta look up stuff in that there danged "yellow pages" ya talked me into purchasin a couple of years ago.

And second, don't forget to contact your "photographer" to take some photographs for posterity when ya are done.

and finally don't ya think all them good words just might go to these yahoos heads.....they might have to borry YOUR hat..

(but when yer right...........yer right.

curley

[Curley Cole]

4Trod

Check yer email, I sent ya some images.


BTW, do you still have yer "yellow pages" I can't find mine.
curley

[Forty Rod]

Got 'em.  More dang homework.

I guess it's a matter of knowing what to look for, because I didn't find most of this stuff.

[Curley Cole]

I take they were acceptable

ifn ya need more images to study, I have an old indian arts book that has several images of knife sheaths, war shirts, shields, and a page of beaded mocs. All mid 1800's

let me know if ya needs them. How did you like that 66?

curley

[Forty Rod]

OHHHH Yeah!!!  Got a lot of work to figure out just what I want.  BTW, thanks for the offer of the cones but I have several dozen already.

I have an idea in mind what I'm trying to do, I just need some details on how to get it done.  I really should loom it, but it doesn't feel right on an 1870s type, white man made Indian style scabbard.  I still have a lot of looking todo.

Wish I could figure out how to 'antique' or 'age' glass beads.  If they were made out of my teeth I could stain them be smiling at a cup of coffee.

[Curley Cole]

4T........

Hey man I emailed you a whole bunch more homework (infact I kinda filled my bookmarks for meownself too)

what do ya think of them pages...

hope it helps

curley

[Forty Rod]

I'll let you know about February when I get through all this stuff.   Kinda like being back in college.

[JohnR]

Wish I could figure out how to 'antique' or 'age' glass beads.  If they were made out of my teeth I could stain them be smiling at a cup of coffee.

Forty Rod

You don't know me, but let me offer you my two cents worth.  I've done beadwork for about 50 years, bought and sold both contemporary and antique native beadwork for a living and collected as a hobby since I was a about 13.  I sold beads and other craft supplies all over Montana, North and South Dakota, Nebraska, Kansas, Idaho, Colorado, Wyoming, New Mexico, Oklahoma for 15 years.  I've now retired from that business, but I still do an occasional piece for myself or friends.  I've tried all the common and some uncommon techniques - loom, lazy or lane stitch, various gourd stitches, applique in geometric, floral and zoomorphic designs, rosettes, Crow stitch and all kinds of edging techniques.  I pretty much settled on lazy stitch and the various gourd stitches as the styles I like to do.

Glass beads do not take "antiquing" or "aging" - glass will not accept any kind of stain that wouldn't leave the beads ruined.  What you see on old pieces that makes them look old is two things - dirt and grime that gets in between the tiny little beads and on the threads, in the buckskin or cloth, through use and wear, and the colors of the beads.  Lets talk colors first. 

The only color of Czechoslovakian bead that I will use is white, and then only in a pinch as even the white is too bright.  If you have access to old Italian beads - and they are available at a price - they are the best.  They are irregular as all get out, but the colors are more muted and they are primarily what old native beadwork was done with. 

Good alternatives are available in the old French beads that Pierre Bovis used to import.  The colors are great if choose the right old colors, but their shape is more bulbous than the Italian beads.  They do serve well in the finished piece but are kind of difficult to work with due to irregularity and their tendency to be fat.  I believe Crazy Crow bought him out some years back and sells them today, although I don't believe they are made any more and availability may be limited. 

An even better alternative, and my personal choice for most work nowadays are the German made old color beads - also available from Crazy Crow.  There used to be other suppliers, but I'm not sure any more as I haven't bought or sold beads in 10 years.  Most of the important old colors are available and a variety of sizes are available also.  They are more uniform and have a better (more correct) shape than the French beads.

There are a zillion good books available but unfortunately many are costly.  I have built a library over 40 years or so of nothing but museum and collection catalogs with some fantastic beadwork of all kinds.  I would suggest a couple of things.  First, determine what type of beadwork you wish to do - don't just call it "Indian".  Plains, northern or southern, plateau, Crow style?  Eastern styles?  I prefer items patterned after a particular tribal group and generally try to emulate (not copy) beadwork from a particular area.  So pick an area or tribal group and invest in one good collection catalog with good color photos.  Study the colors and design elements.  I can't emphasize that enough if you want to do something that looks authentic.  "Quill and Beadwork of the Western Sioux" by Carrie Lyford is an excellent resource to this day, for example, first published by the US Dept of the Interior in the early part of the last century.  Another good resource is "Mystic Warriors of the Plains" by Thomas Mails.  Neither are full of color photos, but they are excellent references for color and design elements.  And while nothing beats color photos of old beadwork, be aware that many things you will see in museum/collection catalogs are mis-attributed.

In my opinion, the best book available on beading techniques is "Native American Beadwork" by George Barth.  There are others, but in my opinion Barth's book is tops for both beginners and experts.  Techniques are clearly illustrated and well explained.  I believe it is also available from Crazy Crow, but there is a better source for books - Written Heritage Books.

https://writtenheritagebooks.com/

I have been friends with both Rex Reddick (who owns Crazy Crow) and Jack Heriard (who owns Written Heritage) for over 40 years and I remember when both started their businesses.  I buy some craft supplies from CC, as well as many other suppliers, but I always look to Jack first for books.

Now - as to aging your beads or beadwork.  I have seen beads sprayed (while still on the hanks) with a very diluted muriatic acid wash.  It takes the glaze off the surface and leaves a rather irregular matte surface.  It is difficult to control and not really authentic.  I just don't like its look.  The beads on old pieces are still shiny unless they are broken.  If you want to try it, I'd buy some cheap beads from Tandy's, Hobby Lobby, or Michaels to try it with.

I have seen a lot of "fake" antiques that have been aged just by dirtying them up - one craftsman whose work I used to sell used dirt from a vacuum cleaner bag because it is really fine.  I've seen coffee or tea brushed over the beadwork and dirt worked in, I've seen entire pieces soaked in coffee, I've seen dirty paint thinner brushed in, and any number of other methods to make something look old.  I'm personally not a fan of any of them.  And all of them put color (dirt) around the beads - not really on them.  If you dampen a cloth with water or a solvent and wipe the beadwork, the beads themselves will come clean and look new again.

Everything was new once.  I prefer to render old looking things by using period correct beads - size and colors - and techniques.  But to each his own.  And in truth, it is the buckskin that gets old looking through use, not the beads, other than normal dirt.  I still own several old pieces that have seen significant use that are not dirty or old looking.  I know they are old and genuine because of their craftsmanship, beads, beadwork technique, other materials used, where I got them and who I got them from, provenance, etc.  When I set out to do a project, I try to emulate the characteristics I find in old things.

Hope all that is helpful - just my $0.02 worth....

[GunClick Rick]

Sure would like to see some pics of your beads.I have a few modern pieces and one i call a watchfob.I am fascinated by beadwork,like gold it is weighty and feel good in the hand,i just don't have the patience to do it,but i an going to try this year or next year,i have a friend that does it and he wants to teach me. Here's a few pics of what i have nothin fancy buy i like them as most were givin to me..