Possible GAF Wild Bunch Revisions

[Pitspitr]

While the GAF and the Battle Rifle Classes have grown considerably, I don't believe we've grown to the point to where we can afford to take the chance of being viewed as "elitists" i would strenuously argue against eliminating the scout classes and it wouldn't make any more sense to eliminate the lever action classes from the WB match. After all the characters in the original movie that the match was named after use lever guns.

[Captain Barrett]

Folks,

Perhaps we are along the lines of allowing those "second generation" bolt guns and WW1 uniforms, but precluding steel helmets and gas masks. Handguns would allow for for Mauser Broomhandles, M1911 (only - no M1911A1a), Colt M1909, the various Webleys in His Royal Highness' Empire. Bolt guns would have the G98 Mauser, M1903 Springfield the SMLE, the M1891 Moisin or other military bolt gun made prior to 1916. Begging the pardon of Rattlesnake, yes, the Empire and other troops were involved in the "Great War" in 1914, but for this side match, being "Americentric" will allow a maximum of potential participation with a minimum of being the uniform police...

[Texas Lawdog]

Do ya think that we could include my 1917 Eddystone?

[Niederlander]

Lawdog,
       I doubt if the 1917 will work, as it's pretty Great War - specific, as are steel helmets, gas masks, etc.  I'm not the one who makes the call, but that would be an educated guess.

[captmack]

I would like to see Wild Bunch divided into two categories, 1911 & DA Revolver with an award for uniform as well.  That way you give out three certificates for the match.

both shooting classes would have to use a period correct Battle rifle with the separation being whether you shoot a 1911 (or other auto) or a DA Revolver i.e. a Colt M-1917.  Loading aids such as moon clips are to be allowed.  So you either drop a clip and reload or eject out your empties and pop in another moon clip loaded.

Those are my suggestions.

Regards,

Capt Mack.

[Mustang Gregg]

Wild Bunch shooting:

I really like the idea of allowing other handguns of the era besides 1911-type pistols.  I reckon that Webleys, early DA S&W's/Colts, Lugers, Mausers, etc, etc oughta be allowed in Wild Bunch.

My opinion only---Your mileage will vary. 

MG

[Bull Schmitt]

It seems to me the Wild Bunch venue is a SASS concept and doesn't really have anything to do with the GAF concept of the Victorian era military. As a matter of fact I believe the Wild Bunch movie lead to the founding of SASS. Let's leave the WB to SASS. If we MUST have something akin to it let's call it something else and establish our own rules for it.

We have a cut-off of 1904 and this discussion is now mentioning WWI!! The GAF is not meant to be everything to everybody. I agree that shooting early 20th century military firearms is fun but I don't believe most of them have a place in the GAF 

Col Bull

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

While I am not in GAF, I have been watching this thread.  Earlier this year in Victoria, The Grey Fox, Cary Kangas entered our club match under Wild Bunch rules as an introduction to this event. (His results were not really part of the match.)

Interesting!  But I kinda agree with Bull Schmidt; - Its NOT my idea of GAF!

All of the ideas being bandied about can fit easily into GAF and its period and subject matter, just leave WB out of it.

BTW, in 1914, the Canadian Expeditionary Force, C.E.F., was equipped with 5,000 model 1911's.  Some of these pistols served well into WWII with our Para's.  The Colts were later augmented with revolvers of several makes.

[Drydock]

Nothing like throwing a grenade in the pond to see what floats up.  But i'm starting to rethink this. . .

Frankly, (Just me now) I'm becoming a little uncomfortable with anything right now that detracts from our central focus on the arms and accoutrements of the Victorian era.  I think I'd rather see a School of the Soldier, or a full power on paper long range match, than the Wild Bunch. Even better, how about the Skirmish run in the 1890s rifle quals. 

I think SASS is about to lose control of the intent of the WB, and it'll mushroom fast if they do. And if it does, it'll spill over on all of us, to our detriment.  We need to keep to our core I'm thinking.

I think too, of the distances we're asking folks to travel.  Adding a whole other set of guns to the load might not be the most considerate thing.

'Course, I'm just a thinkin' . . .

[US Scout]

Let there be absolutely no misunderstanding.  There is no intention, I repeat NO INTENTION, of expanding the focus of the GAF beyond our stated period of interest.  The GAF will continue to focus on the Victorian era military between roughly 1866 and 1900.  You will note from our uniform policies that we will allow some expansion for a few years either way, but our primary focus is and will remain the last half of the 19th century.

However, the so-called "Wild Bunch" side matches have proved extremely popular at our Grand Musters, as evidenced by the early 19th century firearms being used, along with appropriate, and I might add very impressive, uniforms for the period. 

What we are trying to do is define what is, or is not, acceptable for these side-matches so that we do not end up making the mistakes that SASS has done because they didn't give it any real thought until it was too late to take effective action.  Also whether we should recognize the effort to both shoot well and look good doing it. 

We can easily define what we will or will not accept, just as we can easily determine that these "Wild Bunch" side-matches are inappropriate for our Musters.  This is why I am encouraging this exchange of opinions and ideas.  If we determine that these matches are detrimental to the GAF, we will no longer allow them.  On the other hand, if they are not detrimental, then we need to determine what we will or will not allow before it gets out of hand.

US Scout
GAF, Commanding

[Niederlander]

Hello!
      I guess I don't see how "Wild Bunch" stages have to be detrimental to GAF, AS LONG AS THEY ARE KEPT STRICTLY A SIDE MATCH THAT DOES NOT COUNT TOWARDS THE BRIGADE CHAMPIONSHIP!  I think we all agree that the primary focus of GAF is the Victorian era, but that doesn't mean we can't have lot of fun with a slightly later period.  It worked very well at the Muster this year to have the Wild Bunch match the day prior to the actual muster.  That way you could participate or not as you wished.  As far as being concerned with the travel, if I'm going put that much effort and expense into a long and extensive shooting trip, I'd rather have the option of an extra day of shooting, competition, and camraderie.
       I think one way we could limit it is to put the upper time limit at August 1914.  The Great War changed everything, so its beginning would seem to be a good cut-off point.  Another suggestion would be to change the name, maybe to something to do with the Age of Expansion.

[Bow View Haymaker]

I had a great time at the last two wild bunch SIDE matches at the last 2 National musters.  Last year I used my 1917 with limited results and my 2 tone Llama 1911 and had a great time. this year I once again used the Llama along with my trusty Rossie 92.

From some of the ideas mentioned, I would be out of luck on both rifle and pistol.

To  disiallow the 1911A1 would pretty much eliminate all but originals and purpose built reproductions of the WW! era pistgol.  When most people think 1911 it's the A1 that they think of and that is what is mostly availabel to use.  I think it's great to allow other handguns of the era like the double action revolvers and other pistols.  Lets not be like SASS and allow only 1911s but lets not be like NCOWS either and requier that the guns have to be excactly the ones built back then.

on the Rifle,  the 1917 is the closes't thing I have to a battle rifle.  Remember that the m1917 or P-17 rifle is the American verrsion of the British P-14. 

I really liked the relxed atmosphere of the last couple of Wild bunch side matches at the musters.  I would hate to see thing taken so seroiusly as to forget that this is a game. 

I think the Side mach rules should be up to the match direxctor.  This includes the Wild Bunch side match. 
Simply adding the rifle calib er rifles puts the GAF touch on it. 

[Charles Isaac]

One of the things I like about the GAF is that we are allowed ANY service weapon that was actually used in our era, like pencil barreled DA .38s, New Service Colts, Webleys,  M1878 Colts etc.

On the separate classes for the revolver and auto in Wild Bunch, I agree with Capt Mack because I would like to see the big N Framed Smith & Wessons fired. If loading devices for the revolver are not allowed and the revolvers were to be pitted against the automatics, I would just shoot an automatic-easy choice. If there was a separate class for revolver and automatic, loading devices for the wheelgun would be unnecessary, although finding auto rim .45s for the M1917 Colts and Smiths may be a bit of a challenge for the people that use them.

I think the .45 autos should be  in basic service type configuration, not the beavertailed, extended this and that, Novak sighted, funneled mag well gee wiz 1911s. Yeah, I have one of those modern configured 1911s, but I use a standard service .45 for wild bunch because I feel it is more in keeping with the spirit of our organization!

Whatever the outcome is on the status of the "Wild Bunch" in our organization, I am sure that Col
Drydock will make sure that the criteria for allowable weapons and loading methods will be logical and fair.

[Drydock]

Well, OK, here's what I would do:  (and thank you, Charles Isaac!)

As was done at Hartsuff, split the class between Levers and Milspec.  Lever class stays as is (SASS Standard)

Milspec class: Milspec rifles and handguns of the Era of Expansion 1900-1916, items identified with WW1 excluded (No helmets, gas masks, etc.)  period loading aids allowed (Stripper clips, bloc clips, chargers for the Krag, half moon clips for revolvers, etc)  NO shotgun, shotgun targets engaged with the handgun.  (do this at my local match, its a hoot)  Shooter has 4 options for dress: cowboy with any weapon, Villista with any weapon, US army with any weapon (In the Movie after all, the US Army outfits were a disguise)  Or uniform to match the rifle.  Both 1917s (rifle and pistol) and the basic 1911a1 allowed, developments of earlier weapons.  NO OTHER EXCEPTIONS!!

THIS IS A SIDEMATCH!  Don't even think about asking to use any of this in the main match!  

[Pitspitr]

Drydock to your description I would add that certificates would be awarded for placing in the shooting and the uniform competition. And as you say this would NOT count to the BC.

[captmack]

I concur with the good Col.  It's all about having fun.  Keep it a side match and not to interfere with the core values of the GAF. 

Capt Mack

[captmack]

And if we want to separate ourselves from SASS call it the "Pershing" Side Match.

Mack

[Pitspitr]

And if we want to separate ourselves from SASS call it the "Pershing" Side Match.

Mack

I like it!

[US Scout]

And if we want to separate ourselves from SASS call it the "Pershing" Side Match.

Mack

Capt Mack,

See my comments in the "SASS Takes Notice" thread.

I noted on another CAS City forum that the GAF "Wild Bunch" matches are not based on the movie but on the Pershing Expedition into Mexico in 1916.  I would also include the Marine landing at Vera Cruz in 1914 as well - though I didn't say it there.

US Scout
BG, GAF

[pony express]

Col. Drydock....I like the sound of your rules! No need to worry about that cranky '97 I bought...Now, what to use...SMLE, P-14,'98 Mauser, Moisin Nagant, Maybe even the Berthier, if I can find more than just the one clip I have for it(And more than 20 cases!)