How many Grains in a CC ?

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

"LITE" is just training beer!

[Drayton Calhoun]

Just too d#@$d funny Paladin!!!! 

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

All of which fails to deal with the most important question........"how many pints are there in a pub?"

Usually more than most folks can afford!

[sail32]

I concede, it's a given, if you use a Lee scoop in the same manner, all the time, the amount of powder will be approximately the same and your accuracy will be more than sufficient for pistol cartridges and Cowboy ranges.

If you take a clean and primed .45-70 case and fill it up with powder, you will have so many grains per cc of the case, amount  A
Tapping the case allows the powder to settle so you can ad more powder, now you have amount B in the case.
If you use your press to compress the powder, you can ad more powder, now you have amount C in the case.

In this case you have 3 different grain weights for the same volume, which is why the original question is invalid.

If you set conditions it may change, and it will change for each set of conditions.

The confusion of measurement units from different countries, with the same name resulted in most of the world going over to the SI Metric system. Resultin in a number of obscure, but accurate publications.
The non metric countries at present are; Burma (Myanmar), Liberia, and the United States.
That last statement may be in error, in view of this web site.
http://www.nist.gov/pml/wmd/metric/metric-program.cfm

Has anybody checked on how accurate Lee scoops are, over a run of reloading?.

I have done this with a Lee Perfect Powder measure, and running a pound of powder, FFg GOEX, through it I found a difference of less than 2% between the high and low measurements.

http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7037&highlight=

The link is to the Shilo forum, it shows a comparison of 4 types of powder measures, and accuracy with different powders.

My small electronic scale, $20.00 at a gun show, measures in; grains, grams, ounces and carats.
Carats are used to check the weight of those expensive store bought bullets

Drink beer by the Canadian gallon it has 4.546 09 liters.
The US gallon only has 3.785 412 liters, ...even in Texas.
The Canadian gallon was not an Imperial gallon, but an Australian gallon was an Imperial gallon.

Retired people have way too much time on their hands

[wildman1]

I concede, it's a given, if you use a Lee scoop in the same manner, all the time, the amount of powder will be approximately the same and your accuracy will be more than sufficient for pistol cartridges and Cowboy ranges.

If you take a clean and primed .45-70 case and fill it up with powder, you will have so many grains per cc of the case, amount  A
Tapping the case allows the powder to settle so you can ad more powder, now you have amount B in the case.
If you use your press to compress the powder, you can ad more powder, now you have amount C in the case.

In this case you have 3 different grain weights for the same volume, which is why the original question is invalid.

If you set conditions it may change, and it will change for each set of conditions.

The confusion of measurement units from different countries, with the same name resulted in most of the world going over to the SI Metric system. Resultin in a number of obscure, but accurate publications.
The non metric countries at present are; Burma (Myanmar), Liberia, and the United States.
That last statement may be in error, in view of this web site.
http://www.nist.gov/pml/wmd/metric/metric-program.cfm

Has anybody checked on how accurate Lee scoops are, over a run of reloading?.

I have done this with a Lee Perfect Powder measure, and running a pound of powder, FFg GOEX, through it I found a difference of less than 2% between the high and low measurements.

http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7037&highlight=

The link is to the Shilo forum, it shows a comparison of 4 types of powder measures, and accuracy with different powders.

My small electronic scale, $20.00 at a gun show, measures in; grains, grams, ounces and carats.
Carats are used to check the weight of those expensive store bought bullets

Drink beer by the Canadian gallon it has 4.546 09 liters.
The US gallon only has 3.785 412 liters, ...even in Texas.
The Canadian gallon was not an Imperial gallon, but an Australian gallon was an Imperial gallon.

Retired people have way too much time on their hands

Ah presume from the preponderance of "evidence" presented that you are retired.  WM

[sail32]

 Hi Wm,

Yes I am retired and have had some experience in weights and measurements.

I shoot with a friend, nick named "Blow'em up Bobbie", (name change), so reloading details are important.

I recently came across a post on a web site were a person loading cowboy ammunition on a progress press, blew up his Colt 1873 copy.  He took off the top strap, and the top of the top 3 cylinders. Two of his friends also had the same problem. The problem was reported to be a double loading, 2 bullets and a compressed powder charge, which disassembled the revolvers. Unfortunately I cannot find the web address for this problem

Considering that both the British and US Governments managed to get black powder pressures of over 100,000 psi, in their experiments with weapons. Unfortunately I have no details on the 100,000 psi results.

Sloppy or incorrect use of measurements can be hazardous to your health, and with scales, so cheep, why take chances ?

I found this forum as I was researching Chaparral and Uberti copies of the 1873 and 1876 Winchesters in .44-40, .45-60 and .45-75, and black powder and smokeless loadings for them. I am planning to acquire a 73 or 76, in the near future.

The forum has been most informative

[Mako]

Sail,
Since you don't seem to have a lot of experience wtih BP  I'll go through your post to pass on what we already know.

Hi Wm,

Yes I am retired and have had some experience in weights and measurements.

I shoot with a friend, nick named "Blow'em up Bobbie", (name change), so reloading details are important.

I recently came across a post on a web site were a person loading cowboy ammunition on a progress press, blew up his Colt 1873 copy.  He took off the top strap, and the top of the top 3 cylinders. Two of his friends also had the same problem. The problem was reported to be a double loading, 2 bullets and a compressed powder charge, which disassembled the revolvers. Unfortunately I cannot find the web address for this problem

This would physically be impossible to do if he were loading BP correctly.  You keep insisting on turning to weight, a  mistake in weight will allow a problem like that to happen, loading by volume will prevent it.

• All pistol cartridges loaded with BP must not have ANY unoccupied space in them.  If you do that it is impossible to double charge.
• All pistol cartridges loaded with BP should have a minimum of 1/16th compression of the powder after the bullet is inserted.  If the shooter you mentioned had done that then it would have been IMPOSSIBLE to seat a second bullet.
• Cases not totally filled with BP are dangerous and the pressures are NOT lower than a case filled to the brim
• You did not say whether or not he was using BP, I would be willing to bet he wasn't

Considering that both the British and US Governments managed to get black powder pressures of over 100,000 psi, in their experiments with weapons. Unfortunately I have no details on the 100,000 psi results.

I know the exact tests and they are not with small arms ammunition, the test was conducted by the ordnance board of the dept. of the Army.  The tests were in sealed pressure vessels.  Let me translate for every one, we call them "bombs" in the industry for a reason.  I have had this proffered as evidence of the nature of BP before.  It is a misuse and the same would apply with any other propellant.

Sloppy or incorrect use of measurements can be hazardous to your health, and with scales, so cheep, why take chances ?

As I said the chance you are taking is not using volume.  Different manufacturers have different weights because of density with the exact same grain designation.  If you use your $20 scale instead of using case capacity you may be destroying your $600 pistol or your priceless sight.

I found this forum as I was researching Chaparral and Uberti copies of the 1873 and 1876 Winchesters in .44-40, .45-60 and .45-75, and black powder and smokeless loadings for them. I am planning to acquire a 73 or 76, in the near future.

The forum has been most informative

You are making the mistake almost all non BP shooters do.  This IS NOT a weight driven proposition.  It is volume based.  This is why I was joshing you earlier.  If I had realized you were new to BP I would have approached you differently.

You need to accept something that up to this point you have been unwilling to accept.  The grain measurements we all talk about on this forum are grains volume.  You don't see it used anywhere that I know of anymore except for loading BP. Most of our foreign brethren talk in terms of CCs which keeps the confusion down. 

There have been posts by people such as John Boy who are proponents of weighing their charges because they are engaged in the sport of BPCR which is long range precision shooting with .45-70, .45-90, .38-55, etc.  They not only weigh but the use long 24" drop tubes to further remove volume and increase the amount of powder in the shell.  In their world "seconds of angle" count and they need to make sure they not only have the volume but a consistent volume based on sifting it, shaking it and packing it.  By using a scale they start with a known quantity.  They spend many hours determining the weight of the volume they will load and if they ever switch powders then they have to determine the new weight for the given volume they will occupy.

Don't confuse that precision loading with general BP loading.  And it still doesn't matter it's still about volume.

This is a BP forum, the moderator won't allow any discussion of smokeless powder (and I mean NONE).  That is because it would easily confuse the new shooters and some of the experienced as well.  nitro powder is loaded by weight, always weight.  Nitro powder rarely if ever fills a case, so it has to be by weight.  BP is always by volume.  It is easy to load you literally fill the case to the brim, remove a little bit to allow you to seat a bullet and get 1/16" to 1/8" of compression and you seat the bullet and crimp it hard.

None of the cases you have listed needs to be loaded any differently than that.  Find a FFg powder that you can readily obtain and fill it full and seat the bullet of your choice.  Nitro powders just make it complicated to load.

Have fun,
Mako

[john boy]

Mako, I had to chuckle at your post ... there are several ranked match BPCR shooters that are the antithesis of nearly all of us BPCR shooters who weigh to the 1/10gr, use a drop tube, exact powder column height and all the other tom foolery .  They scoop the powder to the mouth, tap the case a few times, seat a wad and crunch the powder down with the bullet!  Go figure!

One of the 1st authors to test the pressure of black powder was Alfred Nobel who refuted the pressure calculation of a Scotsman in the Royal Academy back around 1870.  He calculated that close to a million PSI was obtainable shooting black powder.  Then again, it was in an 8" artillery gun

[Cuts Crooked]

Mako, I had to chuckle at your post ... there are several ranked match BPCR shooters that are the antithesis of nearly all of us BPCR shooters who weigh to the 1/10gr, use a drop tube, exact powder column height and all the other tom foolery .

...and I had to chuckle at that, John Boy!  Many years ago I learned that, It's not the gun, it's not the ammo, it's man pulling the trigger that really makes the difference between a champion and an "also ran"!

You could give me the finest gun ever made and the best ammo ever concocted and send me to the world championships...and I would not even be in the top 10% at the end. Ah well...a mans gotta know his limitations.

[john boy]

it's man pulling the trigger that really makes the difference between a champion and an "also ran"!

Cuts, don't exclude Mother Nature.  She has ruined the day for many a LR shooter who has every skill there is pulling the trigger accurately.  When she does impose her impositions, to be heard frequently on the line ... AW S......T!
A constantly shifting mirage is my weakness or I should say ... One of My Weaknesses She reeks havoc with me ! 

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Cuts, don't exclude Mother Nature.  She has ruined the day for many a LR shooter who has every skill there is pulling the trigger accurately.  When she does impose her impositions, to be heard frequently on the line ... AW S......T!
A constantly shifting mirage is my weakness or I should say ... One of My Weaknesses She reeks havoc with me ! 

Treat mirage like wind.  Focus your scope so you clearly see the wavey motion of the mirage and aim into the direction it is drifting.  If it is going straight up, aim low. 

Of course, how much is determined by the nut that holds the butt!

[WaddWatsonEllis]

I just popped in to see what the Brouhaha was about .... and from the looks of it I am SO glad that I exited this so long ago .... I have a headache just from reading this page ...LOL

[Pettifogger]

I recently came across a post on a web site were a person loading cowboy ammunition on a progress press, blew up his Colt 1873 copy.  He took off the top strap, and the top of the top 3 cylinders. Two of his friends also had the same problem. The problem was reported to be a double loading, 2 bullets and a compressed powder charge, which disassembled the revolvers. Unfortunately I cannot find the web address for this problem

What you are referring to is an article that was in Shoot magazine.  Unfortunately they are out of business.  They were shooting smokeless powder and what amazed everyone that read the article was how three retards could blow up three guns (they were loading together) before they decided to see what the problem was.

[Dakota Ike]

I remember that Shoot Magazine article from several years ago.  As I recall they were loading 44-40's on a progressive press. The seating stem got gunked up with lube and a bullet would stick in the seating stem/die.  On the next cycle the bullet stuck on the stem would push the bullet placed on the cartridge deep into the case on a charge of 'smokless' powder.  Now two bullets were in 44-40 case, but the outward appearance it looked like normal round.  The only thing is that there would have extra primed and powdered cases with no bullet.  Someone should have noticed.

Larsen is right.  They blew up three guns.

[john boy]

I have found that older scatterguns, say pre 1960s, tend to work quite well with the tradtional card & cushion wads system. They have very short forcing cones, which is what these type of wads were designed for originally.

Cuts, nice informational post.  Interesting:  I shoot a 1901 external cocks Parkerhurst with 82gr Fg/1 1/8oz and plastic wads.  Not one donut hole pattern

[Cuts Crooked]

hi john Boy.

Sorry, that post went in the wrong thread I've deleted it, was just testing something that others were having problems with.

[john boy]

Bad Hair Day?  I have them too!

[Cuts Crooked]

Bad Hair Day?  I have them too!

Nah!!! I'm completely bald now!

[Mako]

Cuts,
Whats the weight of 1 grain volume of your hair?

~Mako

[Cuts Crooked]

Cuts,
Whats the weight of 1 grain volume of your hair?

~Mako

.00000000000000000001 gr?
How would I know? I can't make one gr by volume with my hair. Last time I went to the barber, he just kinda waved the scissors at my head and called it done.