Airspace dangerous in B.P. Ctgs.? Not according to this information.

[Dick Dastardly]

There's always sensationalism in flying in the face of dogma and running separate from the herd.  There is safety in running with the herd and practicing what others have been doing.

So, when you load black powder, I'm talkin' Genuine Powder here and not some kiss your sister sub/replica or heathen stuff, you are actually on your own.  You are responsible for your own actions.  If you screw up, you're alone.  There will be plenty of pards out there waving the "I told you so" flag.

Load your own ammo your own way.  Take notes.  Your widow will need them for the insurance company.  You're an adult now, get used to it.  If you like air spaces in your ammo between the bullet and the black powder, by all means do so.  If you prefer compressed loads, do that.  But, before you do any of that, look around you at some matches and ask questions.  Are there any guns blowing up?  Which ones aren't blowing up?  You could do worse than load the way the majority without exploding guns do.

Air space, or not, is ultimately up to you.  My loads will have a compressed charge of black powder.  It works for me.

DD-DLoS

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Yep!

[Short Knife Johnson]

Mr. Dastardly, it appears to me you left out one detail when it comes to shooting loads with an airspace. 


If said firearms are ever resold (posthumously or otherwise) have the courtesty to note that they were fired with loads that did not fill the case completely in the advertisements.  Also make sure they are priced fair value minus new barrel installaion. 

[fourfingersofdeath]

I am about to start using BP in SASS Cowboy shoots. I was at our National Championships a few weeks ago and I went around picking the brains of a lot of the BP shooters. What surprised me was four or five out of the ten or so I spoke to use a small load and don't worry about air space. Thre of the guys I spoke to have been shootin gBP in these comps for years without experiencing any troiuble.

I like a full case even in smokless if I can arrange it and I will be filling my cases up, thanks very much. If I'm gonna shoot a 44, load it with Black, why would I want to diminish the experience with a light load?

Interesting, not for me, but interesting.

[Blackpowder Burn]

The folks loading with air space are clearly of the gamer persuasion.  Conversely, I'm definitely of the Warthog philosophy.  It's much more fun, and helps explain my slow times! 

[Angel_Eyes]

Now, some may think I can't comment on such as this, being a Limey, but, it is my opinion that if you are a gamer, then stick to Nitro powders and mousefart loads.
Holy Black has always meant full cases and traditional loads,,,,proper shooting as it should be, and be hanged to the fastest times!!
(Thats my excuse, and I stick by NO AIRSPACE).

AE

Anybody got a load for Black for behind 1oz of lead

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy AE,

If you are talkin' 12ga scattergun, you could do worse than start here.  You definitely do NOT want air space in shot shells.

1.  Weigh out 1 oz of shot and measure it's volume.
2.  Put that volume of powder in a primed shell.
3.  Put in and compress a nitro over powder card.
4.  Insert enough fiber wad to bring the load column up to the right height for a good crimp after the shot is added.
5.  Drop in the shot.
6.  Crimp.

I like a roll crimp, others use a pie crimp.  Regardless of the crimp you won't get a lot of reloads out of your hulls.  Black Powder burns 'em up pronto.  Shoot the pattern board and assess the results.  Equal VOLUMES of powder and shot is a called a "square" load.  Traditionally a square load is thought of as correct for Black Powder.  Your mileage may vary.  Increase or decrease your powder charge to get the best and most even patterns.

Enjoy the smoke.

DD-DLoS

[Noz]

What Dick says BUT I find that reducing the powder charge by 15% will give you great goodness on the pattern board. Square loads in my guns tended to blow the middle out of the patterns.

I know, I know it's against everything the Soot Lords believe in to suggest reducing the powder charge but in this case it works.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Angel Eyes;  I've bumped my old post re;  PTERYPLEGIA

her's another link on loading BP shotgun shells;

http://www.tbullock.com/bpsg.html

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Angel Eyes;  I've bumped my old post re;  PTERYPLEGIA

Here's another link on loading BP shotgun shells;

http://www.tbullock.com/bpsg.html

What a great article!

I especially liked his (very true) statement about primers: (sic) BP is very easy to ignite - any primer that fits in the hole will work! 

[w44wcf]

Personally, I use compressed loads of b.p.  

Airspace = more fouling:
A test with 30 grs. of b.p. (earliest b.p. loading) in the .45 Colt in which there was some airspace in the cartridges I loaded, produced more fouling than my standard 40 gr. load.......and accuracy wasn't as good.

My reason for starting this thread is to show that airspace is not the problem it has been thought to be.....in sane loadings of course.   I have never read or heard of a cartridge gun that was ruined because of airspace in its b.p. cartridges......

If someone has, please post the details.

Sincerely,
w44wcf

[Marshal Deadwood]

I've tried to always shoot full case,,,filler,,wads,,,etc to elimate 'air space' in my rounds. But,,I admit I'm curious as to what the hazzard 'might' be if one used lite loads and didnt take up the space with a filler or overpowder wads ?

What is the major concern with 'space' in a bp cartridge ?

MD

[Noz]

The debate is whether leaving an air space in a black powder round can contribute to, at the least a ringed chamber, at the worst a blown gun. The theory that makes the most sense to me is that a loosely packed solid will burn much faster than a solidly packed one thereby causing an explosion rather than a controlled burn.
Anecdotal evidence has shown that an air space CAN cause the above circumstances. Anecdotal evidence has also shown that static  electricity can cause black powder to detonate.
Some folks compress their loads, some don't. Your choice.

[Dick Dastardly]

A compressed charge of Holy Black makes for a safe bp load.  Do less and expect something else.  Maybe bad, maybe good.  Load 'em up and take notes and report back.

DD-DLoS

[Professor Marvel]

Greetings my compatriots -

well, it's kinda complex.

As I understand it -
Within a sealed system - ie a cartridge in a rifle, or a single shot percussion firearm - it has been repeatedly demonstrated that burning BP will produce a wavefront of expanding gasses, which can reflect back from a bullet if it is not fully seated, and cause dramatic localized increases in pressure at some specific place in the barrel. This "can" cause the bulges or worse. Whether it will occur every time with every "air space" seems to be up for debate.

This effect seems to be lessened to some degree in flintlocks due to the flint vent, and revolvers due to the barrel cylinder gap. Caplock single shot muzzleloading rifles are often more affected as are cartridge rifles; however some caplock rifles have vents in their bolsters, which are "said" to have been designed in to allow air pressure to escape when the cap is set off and allow the flame free passage to the powder. These vents "may" lessen the effect of a reflect wavefront.

hope this helps
yhs
prof marvel

[w44wcf]

Historically speaking, we have all been advised not to leave any airspace between the bullet and the black powder in our cartridges, but the ammunition manufacturers of yesteryear didn't always follow that rule! 

Three examples of this are the .32-40, & .38-55 black powder "Short Range" cartridges  &  the  .45-70 Armory cartridge.
The "Short Range" cartridges were "For small game where the more powerful cartridge is not necessary".  The Armory cartridge would be useful in that role as well.

The .32-40 S.R.B.P. cartridge contained  13 grs. of  black powder  and  a   98 gr. bullet.  The .38-55 S.R.B.P. cartridge used a 155 gr. bullet pushed by  20 grs. of  black powder.  The .45-70 Armory  cartridges were loaded with 1.) 20 grs. of  black powder and  a  240 gr bullet or  2.) a 300 gr. bullet over 30 grs. of powder.   In these cartridges, the black powder charges were loose in the cartridge cases according to the specimens I examined.   

The .45-70 Armory cartridges were born out of necessity when  the U.S. Gov't. felt that the standard  .45-70 service loads were too expensive for troops to practice with.

Since, apparently, many thousands of these partially filled black powder cartridges were fired with no problems, I loaded some equivalent .45-20-240 armory cartridges with the exception that I used a 255 gr. bullet of .459 dia.  5 rounds grouped into about a  2 1/2" circle at 50 yards out of a friends trapdoor Springfield.  No problems were encountered.
   
What about heavier bullets and heavier charges?

The Shooting and Fishing Magazine July 31, 1890 issue  reported on tests that were undertaken to determine if there was any truth to the time honored theory that  a space between the powder charge and the bullet would cause a bulge or a burst.

The test firearm was the regulation Springfield breech loading rifle. Here were the results:
Powder Charge: 70 grs.     
Bullet: 500 grs. Slightly reduced in diameter so that it could be loaded from the muzzle. 

1.)Service cartridge, bullet crimped in place – 27,000 p.s.i. / 1,377 f.p.s.
2.)Base of the bullet even with the case mouth – 17,000 p.s.i. / 1,324 f.p.s.
3.)Base of the bullet 5" forward of the case mouth – 7,750 p.s.i. / 1,170 f.p.s.
4.)Base of the bullet 10" forward of the case mouth – 5,375 p.s.i.
5.)Base of the bullet 15" forward of the case mouth – 4,050 p.s.i.

"It will be seen from the above that the results obtained here were such as to upset the idea that there is any danger in a space between the powder and the bullet."

Accuracy testing at 300 and 500 yards indicated that groups were similar  in comparing the service cartridge to placing the bullet even with the case mouth.   

In conclusion, this is not a recommendation to merrily load less than capacity of b.p. in cartridges, but there is evidence that would indicate that it is not the dangerous practice that  it is thought to be.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The rediculous amount of 500 grs. of b.p. in a muzzleloader with a bullet seated 1/2 way down the barrel did cause the barrel to burst in one test that I read about. But that is more like a small bomb.

w44wcf 

[Marshal Deadwood]

For .45colt, I load 25gr fff, one .030 fiberwad, a punched wax paler wax shield, and a .250gr flat nose lead bullet. The powder goes down a 36inch drop tube. This load isnt 'compressed',but is very snug.

Do you feel this is a safe load for the gun,,,in relation to the aforementioned problems that might be encountered ?

MD

[Wolfgang]

For .45colt, I load 25gr fff, one .030 fiberwad, a punched wax paler wax shield, and a .250gr flat nose lead bullet. The powder goes down a 36inch drop tube. This load isnt 'compressed',but is very snug.
Do you feel this is a safe load for the gun,,,in relation to the aforementioned problems that might be encountered ?
MD

Pard, . . you're going to a whole lot of trouble loading .45 Colt cartridges with all that stuff.  If you want to load less powder than fills the case, . . you could top off the powder with enough corn meal to fill the space to the bullet.  Other than that it sounds fine to me. 

[Dick Dastardly]

Or, for a reduced recoil great performing round, you could just load Adirondack Jack's "Cowboy 45 Special" brass with a compressed charge of 1.3cc, or 20 grains, of Holy Black under either an EPP-UG 150 grain or J/P45-200.  Either of those Big Lube®LLC bullets will give great performance in 45 Colt guns with compressed powder charges and no fillers, wads or accouterments.

AJ's fine case design takes advantage of the venerable 45 ACP case with the addition of a 45 "Long" Colt case head.  I fire those short cartridges out of both my brace of 1860 open tops and ROAs.  Both have Kirst Konverter cylinders.

So, you can have your cake and eat it too.  Just get shorter brass for your 45 Colt guns.

DD-DLoS

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

This topic was discussed on THE OPEN RANGE about 3 years ago.  The discussion went for 5 pages, and ranged from the mundane to the esosteric.  Dutch Bill's posts were very educational because of his background in the industry.  If you've got an hour or two, have a read.  You will come across some familiar names.

http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=2098.0