Airspace dangerous in B.P. Ctgs.? Not according to this information.

[w44wcf]

Historically speaking, we have all been advised not to leave any airspace between the bullet and the black powder in our cartridges, but the ammunition manufacturers of yesteryear didn't always follow that rule!  

Three examples of this are the .32-40, & .38-55 black powder "Short Range" cartridges  &  the  .45-70 Armory cartridge.
The "Short Range" cartridges were "For small game where the more powerful cartridge is not necessary".  The Armory cartridge would be useful in that role as well.

The .32-40 S.R.B.P. cartridge contained  13 grs. of  black powder  and  a   98 gr. bullet.  The .38-55 S.R.B.P. cartridge used a 155 gr. bullet pushed by  20 grs. of  black powder.  The .45-70 Armory  cartridges were loaded with 1.) 20 grs. of  black powder and  a  240 gr bullet or  2.) a 300 gr. bullet over 30 grs. of powder.   In these cartridges, the black powder charges were loose in the cartridge cases according to the specimens I examined.  

The .45-70 Armory cartridges were born out of necessity when  the U.S. Gov't. felt that the standard  .45-70 service loads were too expensive for troops to practice with.

Since, apparently, many thousands of these partially filled black powder cartridges were fired with no problems, I loaded some equivalent .45-20-240 armory cartridges with the exception that I used a 255 gr. bullet of .459 dia.  5 rounds grouped into about a  2 1/2" circle at 50 yards out of a friends trapdoor Springfield.  No problems were encountered.
   
What about heavier bullets and heavier charges?

The Shooting and Fishing Magazine July 31, 1890 issue  reported on tests that were undertaken to determine if there was any truth to the time honored theory that  a space between the powder charge and the bullet would cause a bulge or a burst.

The test firearm was the regulation Springfield breech loading rifle. Here were the results:
Powder Charge: 70 grs.    
Bullet: 500 grs. Slightly reduced in diameter so that it could be loaded from the muzzle.  

1.)Service cartridge, bullet crimped in place – 27,000 p.s.i. / 1,377 f.p.s.
2.)Base of the bullet even with the case mouth – 17,000 p.s.i. / 1,324 f.p.s.
3.)Base of the bullet 5" forward of the case mouth – 7,750 p.s.i. / 1,170 f.p.s.
4.)Base of the bullet 10" forward of the case mouth – 5,375 p.s.i.
5.)Base of the bullet 15" forward of the case mouth – 4,050 p.s.i.

"It will be seen from the above that the results obtained here were such as to upset the idea that there is any danger in a space between the powder and the bullet."

Accuracy testing at 300 and 500 yards indicated that groups were similar  in comparing the service cartridge to placing the bullet even with the case mouth.  

In conclusion, this is not a recommendation to merrily load less than capacity of b.p. in cartridges, but there is evidence that would indicate that it is not the dangerous practice that  it is thought to be.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The rediculous amount of 500 grs. of b.p. in a muzzleloader with a bullet seated 1/2 way down the barrel did cause the barrel to burst in one test that I read about. But that is more like a small bomb

w44wcf

[Shotgun Franklin]

Well, it might work for a real light bullet and a real light powder charge but I don't see much use for'm myself and at what point is that bullet going to be a little to heavy or the powder charge just a little to much?

[Capt. Montgomery Little]

Sir,  Exactly what is your immediate source of information, ie., title, author, purpose in writing? I don't dispute your report but would like to know who said all this originally.

[Fox Creek Kid]

This is true and Winchester FACTORY loaded some ammo as such. This was discussed a few years back in a BP journal, albeit with the reminder that they did not endorse this. That's all I'll say.

[Angel_Eyes]

I notice that w44wcf tried the "airspace" loads in his friends Springfield!!

Wise move!!

AE

[Fox Creek Kid]

I notice that w44wcf tried the "airspace" loads in his friends Springfield!!

Wise move!!

AE

The only thing wiser would have been to let a mother in law or ex-wife trigger it. 

[J.D. Yellowhammer]

I recall reading about and seeing some x-rays of 19th century military cartridges, maybe 45-55's, that had paper fillers between the powder and the bullet. These may have been from the Little Big Horn.  I don't quite remember.

One thing I always wondered about concerning airspace--what about long range BPCR, when the bullet is breech seated?  That would leave some airspace between the loaded shell and the bullet, even if not much. Yet it's very common and very accurate.

[J.D. Yellowhammer]

Here's what I was referring to:

The .45/55 carbine cartridge does not differ from the .45/70 rifle cartridge, issued to the infantry, except that the case was filled with only fifty-five grains of black powder. In order to keep the smaller powder volume compacted, ordnance personnel developed a wad for the carbine load. Later experiments used a cardboard tube liner in place of the wad. (War Dept. 1875).

Archaeological Perspectives on the Battle of the Little Bighorn, D. Scott, p. 173.

(all the complete cartridges they found had the wads)

[w44wcf]

Captain Montgomery Little,
1890's UMC catalogs shows all of the cartridges so they were in exsistance at that time. The .45-20-240 and .45-30-300 would have been in exsistance certainly before that.

The information from The Shooting and Fishing Magazine July 31, 1890 issue was shown in an issue of the Black Powder Cartridge News a few years ago.

I notice that w44wcf tried the "airspace" loads in his friends Springfield!!
Wise move!!
AE

Yep, even tied a string around the trigger to fire it from a safe distance! Ha! Seriously though , I fired them in my 1895 Marlin first.   

FCK, Hadn't thought of that.  No ex wife though. Married 43 years.......

J.D.,
THank you for that info. Interesting.

w44wcf

[sharps1863]

 You ask about loose blackpowder and an airspace, I have loaded ny .54cal Sharps many times with loose powder and bullet, No problems, Read up on the originals and they gave either a loaded linen cartridge or loose powder and ball. Why does it work with them? 

[J.D. Yellowhammer]

You ask about loose blackpowder and an airspace, I have loaded ny .54cal Sharps many times with loose powder and bullet, No problems, Read up on the originals and they gave either a loaded linen cartridge or loose powder and ball. Why does it work with them? 

I think you're misunderstanding this, or I am.  Loose powder isn't the problem.  When you load your Sharps do you tamp the ball onto the powder?  The originals tamped their charge and ball.  There's no airspace.  The airspace issue would arise if you pushed your ball in and left it above the powder with no compression or contact.

[sharps1863]

I take it you have never shot a drop breech Sharps rifle. You dont load it down the barrel, it loads by dropping the breech with a lever like a single shot rifle, you insert the bullet and add the powder. Close the breech and cap. The powder sits behind the bullet loose or you can insert a loaded paper cartridge. when you close the breech it will cut off the end of the cartridge exposing the powder. If you have never shot one, you should look at seeing if someone you know has one, They are fun to shoot and a lot easier to clean than a muzzleloader, But if you use loose powder you will have an air space.I guess why a Breeching loading Sharps does not follow this rule, is it loses some of its pressure around the breech block when you shoot it, I have been shooting and reloading blackpowder cartridge and Muzzleloaders for 30 years.  Trust me I know about airspace and blackpowder, they dont mix well.

[August]

Exactly what awful thing will happen if I don't compress the powder with the bullet.  I have "failed" to do this thousands of times and have suffered no ill effects.

[J.D. Yellowhammer]

I take it you have never shot a drop breech Sharps rifle. You dont load it down the barrel, it loads by dropping the breech with a lever like a single shot rifle, you insert the bullet and add the powder.

Ah, my mistake, I thought you were talking about muzzleloaders. Actually, if you look a few posts earlier in this thread, I asked this very question about breech loading and pressure.  I'm familiar with it but I've never tried it. Thanks for answering the question. 

[Cuts Crooked]

Exactly what awful thing will happen if I don't compress the powder with the bullet.  I have "failed" to do this thousands of times and have suffered no ill effects.

Reckon y'all could "ring" a chamber doing it. I KNOW from hard won experiance that it's possible to ring a front stuffers barrel by failing to seat a ball on the powder. Having said that, I must admit that I've never seen a ringed chamber in a c'atridge gun from leaving airspace in a BP load. But I figger why chance it!?!?!

[Forty Rod]

Check out Brimstone Pistoleros website.  They did some extensive tests of all kinds.  I know many of these shooters and trust them 100%.

[Frenchie]

Here it is: Why Does a Short-Started Ball Cause a Barrel Bulge?

[Noz]

I'm of the school of thought that the ball must be incontact with the powder charge. The only example I can off is a shooter shooting ROA with a light load of Pyrodex. There was not enough Pyrodex to give any compression. Upon fire of each chamber there was a distinct double report. The cap fire follow a few miliseconds later by the main charge firing. Didn't sound like anything I wanted to do.

[w44wcf]

Interesting info in this DUPONT BLACK POWDER PAMPHLET from waayyy back when. The second paragraph down on the right hand page talks about airspace.
Dr. Hudson  was a renowned shooter in the late 1800's, early 1900's. He was on at least 2 PALMA teams and holds
some Schuetzen records.


w30wcf

[Short Knife Johnson]

That just sounds like breech-seating and doesn't seem to say anything about leaving an air void.  The so called "carbine" .45-55-300 loads did have a cardboard wad filler take up space.  I do agree with Noz and Cuts Crooked.  The theory I agree with is that since BP has a faster initial pressure spike than smokeless, the air in the case is forced forward faster than a smokeless round.  This in turn has a swaging effect on the chamber just behind where the bullet is seated.  Possibly, this is due to the abnormal pressure wave of compressed air contacting the yet stationary bullet.  One or two rounds won't hurt, but a continuous diet might bung things up in a hurry.  I can't remember the source, could have been Mike Venturino, but don't hold me to that.

What I do find interesting is the mention of different primers for different propellents.  The manual states the primers meant for smokeless, if used with black, with leave hard dry fouling that will impair accuracy.  Using black powder primers with black powder will make for soft, moist fouling.  Umm, what do you think there Cuts Crooked?  Is that something worth posting on the Shiloh forum? 

-Short Knife
aka "Wagonmaker"