Thoughts and problems reloading .44WCF

[Pulp]

I posted this over on the SASS Wire, but also wanted input from y'all what don't visit over there.



I've been reloading .44-40 for several years now and thought I had all the bugs worked out. But here lately I've been getting a lot of rounds that wont chamber in my Uberti SAA.

I've read and reread threads here and over at CASCity. Some folks say that Lee dies are a bit too long and don't move the shoulder back far enough, and too shave 1/16 or so of an inch off the bottom of the die.

But I got to thinkin', if I resize a case and said case drops into a chamber as slick as snot, but a loaded round will not drop in all the way, how did I just move the shoulder up too high??? I did an experiment where I pulled the de-primer pin from my resizing die, and ran some of the objectionable rounds through the resizer again, they'd chamber, slick as snot. Now I know that's not a good idea, and it doesn't solve the problem, just puts a bandaid on it, and potentially creates new problems down the line. THIS IS NOT A FIX, BUT AN EXPERIMENT. I have no intention of resizing every loaded round.

So I came to the conclusion that there is something wrong with either the bullet or the crimp. The bullets are Mav Dutchmen sized down to .428. That should work OK.

Now I've narrowed it down to three things:

1. Too much powder could possilby swell the neck below the bullet when seating. I'm using a 1.09cc disk, and run it twice to get 2.18cc of powder, so I don't think that's the problem.
2. I'm belling the brass too much, so when I crimp, the crimp doesn't grab the full length of the bell.
3. I'm crimping too hard, or not hard enough.

Tonight I went out and readjusted my expanding die and seating/crimping dies. The expander now just barely bells the mouth. The seating/crimping die just barely begins the crimp. At this point rounds wouldn't load into the chambers. Then a Lee Factory Crimp die. Of six rounds 2 drop in, 2 are a bit tight, and 2 won't go at all. I took the 2 that wouldn't go and ran them through the FC again, and now they drop.

I've concluded my problems are due to sloppy crimps, not high shoulders.

Any thoughts, suggestions, confirmations or denials would be deeply appreciated.

Tonight I was using some Starline brass. Over the years I've learned my Uberti prefers Winchester and Starline above any other brand.

[litl rooster]

#2
Too much bell will stop them from chambering, crimp die should fix that

Occassionally I will not bell the casing enough and seating the bullet causes the brass to buckel some.  I usually cull these and load them one at a time at the range and fire them back straight. if they don't chamber then I pull the pill and resize.

[hellgate]

Sometimes the crimping will push the brass and bullet down which will flare out the shoulder. i.e. the crimping squeezes the mouth of the brass to where it bites into the bullet (especially if not seated at the crimping groove) or the crimp is too abrupt or sharp and the die shoves the brass (shell neck) downward which bulges the shoulder. Mike the cases and see if the OAL varies among the cartridges that are a "go' and "no go". You may find the bulge at the shoulder. A taper crimp might solve the problem.

[Montana Slim]

First guess is your using a bit more crimp than necessary, combined with variations in case lengths.
I've experiencd this problem myself. Simply backed off the crimp a bit and the issue went away.

My light crimp is still sufficient to work fine with the 100 or so smokeless cartridges I load each year.

Regards,
Slim

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy Pulp,

This may not help your sticky cartridge problem, but it will eliminate one operation.  Get the stack kit for that disk measure and stack two disks dialed to 1.09cc.  Double dumping with one disk has a higher inherent fill difference potential.  I use the same disk system and found that the double stack gave me more consistent powder volumes.

It could be that you have just enough difference in powder volume that it is compounding your problem when you compress the powder in the bullet seating operation.  Certainly 2.18cc (about 35 grains) isn't an overload in the 44WCF case.  That's the setting I use for my 44 Magnums and the 44WCF holds a bit more.

If that Uberti is the only gun that has a problem, I'd have the chambers checked to see if they might be under spec, short throated or whatever.  One downside to the 44-40 chambering is that it wanders around more than most over the years.  Driftwood would tell you that also.  In other words, your ammo may be just fine and that one gun could be the culprit.

DD-DLoS

[hellgate]

I agree with Slim that crimp variation can be due to varying OAL. You'll get the occasionally extra deep or hard crimp that might bulge the shoulder. I'll bet the culprits are overly long cases that are getting crimped excessively.

[w44wcf]

Pulp,
Another option.....you may have some cases that are thicker than others so there could be interference in the chamber neck.
I ran into that situation with a some brass awhile back. Try measuring the o.d of the neck on the cartridges that won't chamber and see if they are a bit larger in diameter than the ones the fit ok.

w44wcf   

[Montana Slim]

Good points from w44wcf & DD.....I use the double-disk kit myself and have a dedicated hopper setup for it.

Regards,
Slim

[Jefro]

Howdy Pulp,

This may not help your sticky cartridge problem, but it will eliminate one operation.  Get the stack kit for that disk measure and stack two disks dialed to 1.09cc.  Double dumping with one disk has a higher inherent fill difference potential.  I use the same disk system and found that the double stack gave me more consistent powder volumes.

It could be that you have just enough difference in powder volume that it is compounding your problem when you compress the powder in the bullet seating operation.  Certainly 2.18cc (about 35 grains) isn't an overload in the 44WCF case.  That's the setting I use for my 44 Magnums and the 44WCF holds a bit more.

DD-DLoS

I also use the double disk for the 44/40 with the .95 double stacked. With Schuetzen ffg it throws 30.2gr and gives 1/16'' compression with BL. I decided to go to the research and development center (garage) to further investigate. With the 1.02 double stacked it throws 33.2gr with an 1/8'' compression. The 1.09  double stacked throws 35.2gr with 3/16'' compression. The same charge with Goex ffg was 33.5gr. All grain weights are the average of five throws. What does all this mean?? Nothing, I was just curious to see how full the case was with the different double disks I have. For Pulp's problem I might load a few with a 1/16'' compression just to make sure you're not slightly bulging the case, but first I would back off the crimp. If all else fails it might be time to shave 1/16'' off the bottom of the sizing die, and or do a chamber cast. Good Luck.

Jefro

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

A few thoughts. First off, 2.18CC of powder is not too much with the Mav-Dutchman bullet and 44-40. My standard load for that bullet is 2.2CC of powder. When I crimp in the crimp groove I get about 1/16" of compression which is just right and gives me no problem. That is not enough powder to expand the case or move the shoulder of the brass, it is just about right. You might want to try pouring in the powder just once, as double dipping can lead to inaccuracy, but I doubt that is your problem.

I used to size all my Mav Dutchman bullets to .427. .428 would work fine in all my guns, but .429 was just large enough to cause chambering to be a little bit sticky. These days I am sizing to .428 because the rifling in my Henry is larger than my '73 and so I bumped up my sizing by .001. Your chambers may be just a tad tight. You do not mention what brand of brass you are using. With tight chambers and 'large diameter' bullets, you want to use the thinnest brass possible. I usually use Winchester brass when I load 44-40, the neck at the mouth is the thinnest I have found, right around .007. Using Winchester brass may buy you an extra thousandth of clearance.

You could always try my old trick of leaving a hair of space between the tippy top of the case mouth and the underside of the upper edge of the crimp groove. If you crimp all the way to the top of the groove, the brass can butt up against the lead as the crimp is formed. This leaves the brass no where to go and can cause bulging at the crimp or below the bullet. Not a problem with thicker brass like 45 Colt, which will just bulldoze its way into the lead. The thinner brass of 44-40 is not robust enough to plow into the bullet and something has to give. A gap of around .005-.010 seems to work just right. Don't worry about the bullet setting back, the compressed powder will keep it in place.

Lastly, I have discovered that the tremendous amount of lube in the Big Lube bullets can sometimes cause problems not seen with other bullets. Again, the thinness of 44-40 brass can contribute to this. What happens is the lube behaves like a liquid and cannot be compressed. So the thin brass of thre 44-40 crimp may not be able to squeeze all the lube down when the crimp is made, resulting in a bulge.

I hate to admit it, but I have found the Lee Factory Crimp die is the solution to this last problem. The FCD has enough oomph to it that it will squeeze down the crimp despite the overabundance of lube.

[Wills Point Pete]

 I am told that Starline .44WCF brass is a tad thicker than Remchester's, this makes for fewer cases damaged in handling and if the case isn't just so in the shellholder. This could cause problems in a tight chamber.

Bear in mind, though, that it's been like forty-five years since I've loaded for that ca'tridge, seems that my dad sold all of those to a collector while I was in the service. Seems that the old Winchester would eat just about anything but the Colt that went with it had two or three chambers that were tighter than Dick's hatband. Back then about all we could do was run those loaded rounds through the sizer die with all the innards taken out. This worked fine with the Colt but made for very inaccurate loads in the Winchester. As near as we could figure the "after loading" sizing made the bullets undersized enough to hit the rifling all crooked.  So we had to load one batch of ammo for the Colt, another for the Winchester, destroying the concept of two guns, one ca'tridge.

Knowing what I know now, it would have only taken a few turns with a chamber reamer to fix the problem. Well, factory loads would have fixed it, too but what teenager back then could afford those?

[Driftwood Johnson]

I am told that Starline .44WCF brass is a tad thicker than Remchester's, this makes for fewer cases damaged in handling and if the case isn't just so in the shellholder. This could cause problems in a tight chamber.

Yes, Winchester 44-40 brass tends to run around .007 thick at the neck, Starline tends to run around .008. I have run thousands of rounds of Winchester 44-40 brass through my dies without crumpling anymore than with any other brand. You just have to be careful. .001 of thickness does not make a hill of beans of difference in handling or preventing neck damage, but it can make all the difference in the world with chambers that are slightly tight.