Why no CAS class for .22 caliber

[jrdudas]

OK, I really do not intend to stir up a hornets nest with this question, but inquiring minds (mine) want to know.  I enjoy CAS and wish that I could participate more, and that has sparked this question.

I am a long-time target shooter and find that I can have just as much fun with a .22 caliber as with something larger.  I know a lot of folks look forward to the big "boom" and the resulting recoil, but why is there no competition class for .22 caliber pistols and rifles in CAS.  I did a brief search on the history of the .22 and in its modern form it dates back to at least 1887.  And the fore-runner to the modern .22 dates to before the Civil War, and in fact many soldiers on each side in that conflict carried .22 caliber pocket pistols as backup weapons.

I know that .22's can be used in "side shoots", but with the cost of ammunition these days, and the sometimes scarcity that we encounter, why is there not a competition class for .22's.  I have a Henry Golden Boy rifle that is period correct, and also a .22 Single Action revolver.  I think that the .22 caliber rifle has a long and treasured history including its use in the Old West.  It's true that it was not a weapon of choice for lawmen and bad guys, but it was probably one of the most used utility weapons around.  I suspect that almost every home had a .22 for hunting small game.  So is the exclusion of a .22 caliber CAS class just a "macho" thing, or is there some other reason.

Thanks for your thoughts,  JR
   

[GunClick Rick]

Could be the riccochet factor and a safety thing.Here's to the 22 Goldies.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Oh I just can't resist. What in the world is 'period correct' about a Henry Goldenboy?

It is true the '73 was chambered for 22 short, but that's an awfully heavy rifle for such a small cartridge. Same with the 1885 Single Shot. I believe Stevens developed the 22 LR cartridge in 1887, and made several single shot rifles chambered for it. I dunno if they made any repeaters for the 22. Winchester did not introduce a rifle designed for the 22 until the Browning designed Model 1890, I still have my Dad's Model '06 which is a cheaper version of the 1890. I believe the first 22 repeater Marlin made was the Model 1891, which is still produced today as the Model 39. Now there is a 'period correct' 22. As far back as 1857 S&W started producing their tipup revolvers chambered for 22 shorts. The cartridge was invented around that time by a Frenchman by the name of Flobert, but it did not look a whole lot like a modern 22.

Frankly, I think part of the problem is spotting hits and misses. It's sometimes hard enough to know for sure whether a bullet has hit the target with down loaded 38s out of a rifle. 22s might be even more difficult.

[Deadguy]

At the club I shoot at, the Buckaroos with their .22's shoot the same stages and targets as everyone else.  Yes, it is true that the .22's are more difficult to spot, but as long as the spectators stay reasonably quiet while the .22's are shooting, it's not too bad, but it is still more difficult than dealing with gamer loaded .38's.

[Bow View Haymaker]

I know ther is at least 1 independant club in Iowa that has a .22 class.  Bring it up as an idea to your local MD.  It would be another way for new shooters to get started.

[Daniel Nighteyes]

It would be another way for new shooters to get started.

It could also be a way for financially embarrassed pards (like me) to continue shooting until things improve a bit.  Of course, there's still the issue of buying .22 CAS guns...

[jrdudas]

I am a bit confused by the comment that the Henry Golden Boy is not "period correct".  Henry started making lever action rifles in the 1850's or 1860's.  It's true that their rifles were not .22 caliber, however there were lever action .22's made by other companies.  It is also true that the current Henry company is not a direct descendent of the original company; this company  purchased the name some years ago and began manufacturing again.  The lever action Henry's were the fore-runner and the model upon which the Winchester lever action was based.  I am certainly not an expert, but it seems to me that the basic differences between their product of today and that of the original Henry is that the current models include safety features and are "side eject" rather than "top eject".  The current models are lever action, have exposed hammer, use a buckhorn rear sight, and the Golden Boy does not have a scope rail, and is made in the USA.  So I don't see how the Henry Golden Boy is any less "period correct" than the Ruger Vaquero is.  The Vaquero and many other brands of SA pistols are a design that is based on single action pistols of the 1800's updated to include the safety features required today.

Please don't think that I am offended by the comment, but please educate me as to what makes the Golden Boy not "period correct".

Thanks for your thoughts,  JR
     

[jrdudas]

It is encouraging to hear that at least one club has a .22 caliber class.  The difficulty in recognizing hits may be one of the reasons that SASS does not have a .22 class, however as earlier mentioned, sometimes it is hard to recognize hits from some of the low powered hand-loaded .38's.  I suspect that a timer paying close attention would have little trouble adjusting to recognizing hits with a .22 caliber.  I have shot in open pistol competitions shooting at metal targets where a variety of calibers were used and there was no trouble identifying my .22 caliber hits and misses.

Thanks for your thoughts,  JR

[Stillwater]

I think the question asked IS a good question... I would allow a .22 long rifle class, allow it, but as a separate rimfire class...

I have enough firearms to outfit a small army, of which about 20 are chambered for 22 Long Rifle. The .22 is a viable caliber, well maybe not for city slickers. We sure used the .22 a lot, on the ranch I grew up on.

When it was time to butcher, the lowly twenty-two was used to put a large beef critter, or a hog down, for the butchering. Properly used, the .22 would do the job well.

I would allow all of the interations of the Marlin 39.

I would allow the Wichester slide action .22 rifles up to and including the Winchester model 62A.

There are plenty of .22 caliber Low Walls.

There are many iterations of the Stevens Favorite and Crack Shot rifles available. Varner makes a Stevens Favorite replica, that is a beautiful, high quality rifle. I am fortunate enough to have one of these fine rifles.

I would allow any .22 long rifle ammunition and the .22 WRF ammunition. The 22 WRF was introduced in about 1890.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/history_rimfire_ammo.htm

I have read on this thread, those saying the .22 is just too hard to hear the bullet impact. I think saying that is a little too trite...

In answer to that I would say either upgrade the technology, or upgrade the observers, that are having a hard time spotting the hits, or misses, if that is the problem.

Something could be done to the target to record the hits, something as simple as a sheet of plain paper cut to the size, or the outline of the target. I have shot animal crackers and other nabisco crackers, at over twenty-five yards and don't have any problems seeing the hits or the misses. And I am 73 years old.

Bill

[Driftwood Johnson]

am a bit confused by the comment that the Henry Golden Boy is not "period correct".  Henry started making lever action rifles in the 1850's or 1860's.  It's true that their rifles were not .22 caliber, however there were lever action .22's made by other companies.  It is also true that the current Henry company is not a direct descendent of the original company; this company  purchased the name some years ago and began manufacturing again.  The lever action Henry's were the fore-runner and the model upon which the Winchester lever action was based.  I am certainly not an expert, but it seems to me that the basic differences between their product of today and that of the original Henry is that the current models include safety features and are "side eject" rather than "top eject".  The current models are lever action, have exposed hammer, use a buckhorn rear sight, and the Golden Boy does not have a scope rail, and is made in the USA.  So I don't see how the Henry Golden Boy is any less "period correct" than the Ruger Vaquero is.  The Vaquero and many other brands of SA pistols are a design that is based on single action pistols of the 1800's updated to include the safety features required today.

Please don't think that I am offended by the comment, but please educate me as to what makes the Golden Boy not "period correct".

Thanks for your thoughts,  JR

First off, let's get rid of that term 'period correct' I really can't stand that term, it sounds too much like Politically Correct. Would you accept Historically Accurate?

The current Henry company did not purchase the Henry name. There was no one to purchase it from. The name has been in public domain for many, many years. They simply adopted the name because of its name recognition. And like you say, they have no relationship to the original company of that name, although to read their advertising one would never know that. They claim to be descended from the original Henry rifle, which is kind of like claiming that modern automobiles are descended from the guy who invented the wheel. It's quite a stretch, at best.

The original Henry rifle was not manufactured by the 'Henry Company', it was manufactured by the New Haven Arms Company. Benjamin Tyler Henry was the shop superintendent who designed the rifle and its ammunition under the guidance of Oliver Winchester, the chief stockholder in the company. In fact there never was a Henry Company, except for a very short time around 1866 when B. Tyler Henry and Oliver Winchester got in a tiff over who owned the company. Winchester won and renamed the company after himself.

As has been stated many times, the simple fact that a gun has an exposed hammer and a lever does not make it Historically Accurate. No more than the Ruger Vaquero is Historically Accurate. Don't get me wrong, I love Rugers and own a bunch of them, but other than a superficial exterior resemblance to the Colt Single Action Army, there is just about nothing inside a Ruger that resembles a Colt or any other 19th Century revolver. Ruger completely redisigned the classic SAA from the inside out. The lockwork is not the least bit similar to a Colt or any other 19th Century revolver. Same with the Golden Boy. And the Big Boy too for that matter. Just having an exposed hammer and a lever does not make them Historically Accurate, or Period Correct, or whatever you want to call it. Like I said, if you want to look at a 22 rifle that has changed very little after being manufactured for over a hundred years, take a look at a Marlin 39A.

Yes, the 22 rimfire cartridges have been around since the 1850s, but other than some large frame rifles that were chambered for 22 shorts, I am racking my brain and cannot come up with any repeating rifle specifically designed for 22 rimfires before the Winchseter Model 1890.

[Ranch 13]

I have read on this thread, those saying the .22 is just too hard to hear the bullet impact. I think saying that is a little too trite...

In answer to that I would say either upgrade the technology, or upgrade the observers, that are having a hard time spotting the hits, or misses, if that is the problem.

Something could be done to the target to record the hits, something as simple as a sheet of plain paper cut to the size, or the outline of the target. I have shot animal crackers and other nabisco crackers, at over twenty-five yards and don't have any problems seeing the hits or the misses. And I am 73 years old.

Bill   

Good points Bill, In bpcr competeition we often shoot 22 rifles to 150 yds and beyond and there's little trouble determining hits and misses.
As to the part about repeateing rifles , not every rifle in use by folks in the time frame portraryaed by CAS was a reperater.

[Stillwater]

There was an 1873 Winchester, on Gun Broker, chambered in 22 Long, that the person listing the rifle said it was made in 1888.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=139181933

I know this isn't a reliable source for information. However, the Winchester Book, by Madis, is considered a reliable source.

Quote:

While Winchester had manufactured and loaded the .22 Short and the .22 Long cartridges since the year 1873, the model '73 chambered for this cartridge was first offered in 1884.

Bill

[Stillwater]

Good points Bill, In bpcr competeition we often shoot 22 rifles to 150 yds and beyond and there's little trouble determining hits and misses.
As to the part about repeateing rifles , not every rifle in use by folks in the time frame portraryaed by CAS was a reperater.

Hello Ranch, how is your new 1885 Low Wall, in .22 LR  doing.

Bill

[Ranch 13]

Hello Ranch, how is your new 1885 Low Wall, in .22 LR  doing.

Bill

Bill that thing when fed most good ammo and especially the Aquila Rifle Match stuff is just scary accurate. It'll hold about an 8 inch group at 270 yds IF I do my part.

[Driftwood Johnson]

While Winchester had manufactured and loaded the .22 Short and the .22 Long cartridges since the year 1873, the model '73 chambered for this cartridge was first offered in 1884.

Yes, I mentioned the '73 had been chambered for 22s. But that is a large rifle that was originally designed for large caliber centerfire rounds. The Model 1890 pump gun is the first repeater that I can think of that was specifically designed for a 22 rimfire. If you want to shoot 22s in a CAS match, you are going to need a repeater. Yes, single shots were available, but do you think it is fair to make everybody wait while you load a single shot ten times for every stage?

For what it's worth, the Great Nor'easter regional match usually has a 22 caliber shooting gallery set up. Only for 22s. Just like when you were a kid and went to the shooting gallery at a carnival. Moving knockdown targets and all. I usually bring my Marlin 39.

[Ranch 13]

. Yes, single shots were available, but do you think it is fair to make everybody wait while you load a single shot ten times for every stage?

If that's the way they want to set a 22 match yup it's fair.
If someone took a Marlin 39 for a repeater, it'ld be a lot more authentic than any rifle chambered in 45colt, 357 or 44 magnum , 32 H&R, ...........

[Stillwater]

Bill that thing when fed most good ammo and especially the Aquila Rifle Match stuff is just scary accurate. It'll hold about an 8 inch group at 270 yds IF I do my part.

I like the sound of that... Due to the wifes illness's I haven't had a chance to shoot mine. When I can find some of the aquila ammunition, I will buy some to try...

I'm glad your Low Wall is working so well for you...

Bill

[Ranch 13]

Bill , sure hope your wife gets on the mend soon.

That lil rifle will shoot alot of good ammo very well, so whatever you can get a hold of in todays market will likely work well for you.

[Granny Annie]

I know ther is at least 1 independant club in Iowa that has a .22 class.  Bring it up as an idea to your local MD.  It would be another way for new shooters to get started.

I believe we are the "Independent Club" that Bow Haymaker is refering to.  The Goddard Cowboys does have a .22 category and we call it "Double Deuce".  Please check our website www.goddardcowboys.com for the details and come on over!!   

Thanks!!

[OldMike]

I have come across this club several times on internet searches, and have often thought that it would be some good low cost cowboy shooting fun!

http://fortwhitegunclub.org/rimfire_ruckus.asp

I am a big fan of shooting the .44 and .45 hogs, but also think it would be nice for those that don't reload to be able to go cowboy shooting without having to spend $30+ per box of ammo...

Just sayin'