serious reloading BP ?

[Frenchie]

shooting my 66 & rugers in 44-40.   shooters complaining that i have to much powder in the shells, that the percussion was to much.
i just fill er up (30 gr 2F swiss) top it with a dutchman 200 gr boolit
was told by several BP shooters to put 22-25 gr in & forget the rest, no filler needed  . a little air shace dont matter
so whats the reference on no air gap with BP

Air space isn't a problem most of the time. It's that nth time when it goes ka-BOOM that'll get you. The -40 in .44-40 means 40 grains and they were compressed. If you get compressed loads from 30 grains of Swiss FFg and you're happy with them, why change? And since when do you take advice from your competitors? 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I suspect it is not percussion they are objecting to. It is concussion. The shock wave that leaves the muzzle when a full Black Powder load of 45 Colt or 44-40 is fired in a revolver is pretty severe. It is usually felt in the stomach and chest by those nearby when the revolver is fired. In fact, somebody standing nearby a shooter usually feels more concussion than the shooter himself, because the shock wave radiates out, and the shooter has his hand and the gun blocking part of it. Around here, nobody objects when I let loose with my 4 3/4" Colt full of 45 Colt Black Powder rounds. Usually they just yell for more powder. There is nothing wrong with your loads, that is how these cartridges were originally loaded, it is the design intent behind the cartridges. If guys object to the noise or concussion, find somebody else to shoot with who appreciates it. If you want to wimp down your loads with filler, that is up to you, however do not leave airspace in your loads.

The problem with air space in a Black Powder load is that Black Powder is a true explosive, it is not a progressively burning propellant like Smokeless powder. With airspace in a Black Powder cartridge the bullet can act as a bore obstruction and may not get out of the way fast enough when the powder lights. So the air in the cartridge behind the bullet gets super compressed and expands outward. The compression is high enough that it can compress the steel in the locality of the airspace, forming a ring in the barrel or chamber. If it happens in the barrel of a rifle, you can get a ring. If it happens in the chamber of a revolver, the steel is much thinner and may not retain its integrity, in other words the cylinder may burst. The fact that your pals have been doing this for three years just shows that they are lucky. Air space in a Black Powder cartridge is a very bad idea.

[Bryan Austin]

shooting my 66 & rugers in 44-40.   shooters complaining that i have to much powder in the shells, that the percussion was to much.
i just fill er up (30 gr 2F swiss) top it with a dutchman 200 gr boolit
was told by several BP shooters to put 22-25 gr in & forget the rest, no filler needed  . a little air shace dont matter
so whats the reference on no air gap with BP

Here ya go. 44-40 BP then 38 smokeless then 38 derringer BP Enjoy the BOOM!
http://www.youtube.com/v/Gx-biisbdIg&hl=en&fs=1&;

[Short Knife Johnson]

People wern't using pop guns to defend themselves from baddies, Injuns (not to mention those bad a$$ed white fellas) and bairs. Imagine selling some frontiersman a lightly loaded 38, if he survived, he'd come back and put that pistol where the sun don't shine. 

You tell 'em Four Fingers.  I think similar thoughts when I see a grown man touches off his pistola and not a whole lot happens afterward.  Maybe there should be a category for such guns that spew way less than original ballistics where the handlers of such firearms must wear dresses.  Regardless of their gender.     I still say there is no replacement for displacement.

[Fairshake]

I load with 32 grs of 2F for my 44-40 and love it. After every stage there is always that mouse fart load guy that will say something . I just smile and keep on shooting. I had one shooter that told me that the concussion from my loads blew out his ear plugs. I like that.

[Short Knife Johnson]

I'm not an expert, but I like to tell people that I am.

If the concussion blew out his ear plugs, then that tells me his skull must had acted like a diaphram.  Which in turn compressed sufficiently to pressurize the contents of his coconut.  The resulting rise in pressure forced out the plugs.  If there was no brain matter leaking out when he brought forth his complaint, then that tells me the man is a fibber, or his head is filled with much empty space.  And he's got a soft spot on his head somewhere.  Maybe encourage him to wear a helmet wherever he goes.  You know - because he's special.

Next year, I plan on doing at least one match in the black.

[August]

Some of the guys I shoot with are not happy to simply hit the target.  They are only happy when they knock the target down.  Lots of smoke.  Lots of noise.  Lots of time spent resetting the range.

[Short Knife Johnson]

Well, you don't get counted as a hit iffen the plate stays standing.  Or has that rule been changed?

[Buffalow Red]

ok thanks guys ill leave my loads as they are
just fill err up & cap it off with a piece o lead

[Delmonico]

Just saw this thread, the title is dumb, anytime you reload anything it should be serious, to even allow that thought that it's not can hurt or kill you or others.

Every round that has came off my bench is reloaded as if my life depended on it.

[Wills Point Pete]

 Depending on how my reumatiz is acting I often load down with my .45 Colt loads, I always use filler when I do. I have to hurt pretty badly, though, to go much under 28 grains. This is what the US Army used during most of the time they used the .45 Colt, that load put a lot of Sioux, Apaches, Cheyenne and others into the Happy Hunting Grounds. That load was popular in the civilian market, too. That was the load that Saint John of Browning copied in smokeless and a jacketed bullet for the 1911. Funny, no one ever calls that a wuss load while they say that anything under a boxcar load of powder in the bigger case is somehow cheating.

The bottom line is that we are playing a game here. If a huge BOOM! and cloud of smoke makes you happy, great. If you want a more moderate BOOM! and smaller cloud of smoke, fine. All that really matters is that the bullet goes fast enough to reach the target before the spotters wander off for a sammich and glass of sweet tea.

Funny, sometimes I venture forth in the real world armed with nothing but my SAA .45, loaded with five soft lead slugs in front of anywhere between 28 and 40 grains of Schuetzen. I do not feel naked before my enemies. Of course, if I new I was headed for a gunfight I'd pack something else, then go the other way.

[fourfingersofdeath]

I load with 32 grs of 2F for my 44-40 and love it. After every stage there is always that mouse fart load guy that will say something . I just smile and keep on shooting. I had one shooter that told me that the concussion from my loads blew out his ear plugs. I like that.

"Great! exactly the result I was looking for" is probably what I'd say. Rreminds me of that line by Cher In 'mermaids.' She was all glammed up about to go out and asked her teenage very straight daughter, 'how do i look?' He daughter replied, 'like a woman about to go forth in sin!' Cher replied, 'exactly the look I was after' or something similar.

Tell the guys who shoot sissy guns and gamer pop gun loads to stand back some.

"I still say there is no replacement for displacement" I liked that sticker that was on the hot rods years ago Short knife, Cubic Inches Count! Gotta go check out the Utube link that Savvy Jack supplied.

[Short Knife Johnson]

I just did.  Pretty good.  Too bad he's not really shooting at anything, but he's not going down for a lack of ability to shoot back.  I wouldn't mind having that many pistols on the belt, but the problem is that you have to clear them ALL at the unload bench wether they were loaded or not.

At the last gun show we had here, our CAS club set up a demo to try and get a few new shooters.  The local newspaper cme out at my request (I work there on a casual basis) to take some pictures and do a blurb on the sport.  They put a full colour pic on the front page of Icebox Bob shooting some impressive BP loads.  Black gets people's attention.

And to Wills Point Pete.  Don't think any of the sissy load comments (mine anyway) are directed at you.  I too am shooting with a disability.  I have what is called a Tendonopathy of the right triceps tendon.  Involves limited range of motion, extreme pain and sensitivity.  As a result 95% of my long gun shooting is done left handed.  This includes my BPCR Silhouette competitions.  Sometimes I can shoot right hand while standing off-hand, but that is a recent development.  Big bore pistols must be fired left or two handed if I insist on using my right index finger to work the trigger.  My situation is improving, but only with a series of very painful injections to the area.  It has plauged my life for four years now and cost me almost everything, so you're not alone in this and I totally sympathize, and apologize if you took offense.  I've also come across other shooters with similar stories and how they cope.  It's the guys whose concern is having a good time rather than having a good time that I am taking the piss out of.   

[fourfingersofdeath]

Bad break short knife, I always say that I am operating way past my use by date. If I was in the cowboy days, I would have been dead long ago. If I was a horse, they would have shot me and turned me into dog tucker years ago. Hang in there.

Whats invisible and smells like pet food? A pensioner's fart!

[Grapeshot]

shooting my 66 & rugers in 44-40.   shooters complaining that i have to much powder in the shells, that the percussion was to much.
i just fill er up (30 gr 2F swiss) top it with a dutchman 200 gr boolit
was told by several BP shooters to put 22-25 gr in & forget the rest, no filler needed  . a little air shace dont matter
so whats the reference on no air gap with BP

They're lucky I'm not shooting there.l  I loaded up .44 WCF with a case full of 777 and sat a 200 grain RCBS Cowboy bullet on top of that with lots of compression.  Not only did I get lots of concussion but when we had multiple taps on some of the targets, I would knock them down.  To top it all off I was loading my .45 Colts with a weighed 40 grains of GOEX 2FG and compressing that to seat a 250 grain Lyman Cowboy RNFP.  Talk about concussion.  It was like being near a 12 pound Napoleon firing solid shot, and the service charge for the 12 pounder was three pounds of cannon grade BP.

You are doing just fine.  I smile at my friends as they shake their heads and take cover.

[Bryan Austin]

Hey guys, thanks for the comments on the video. I wish I would have done several other things like even shooting my Winchester 73 and somehow even fitting in the shotgun or laying behind a fallen tree. However, as you might can see if you look close, I was having problems with positioning the extra two revolvers on my person. My fat belly and thick clothing didn't help either! Stepping backward with out watching where I was stepping wasn't very smart but I did know there wasn't suppose to be any holes to step into.

I'd love to set up some steel targets there but the land doesn't belong to me and I have to walk too far to carry them. Nice swampy area but there is a RR track right behind the camera. Its a great little place to have some fun though! Next time I will add the long guns into the picture!

[Wildcat Will]

They're lucky I'm not shooting there.l  I loaded up .44 WCF with a case full of 777 and sat a 200 grain RCBS Cowboy bullet on top of that with lots of compression.  Not only did I get lots of concussion but when we had multiple taps on some of the targets, I would knock them down.  To top it all off I was loading my .45 Colts with a weighed 40 grains of GOEX 2FG and compressing that to seat a 250 grain Lyman Cowboy RNFP.  Talk about concussion.  It was like being near a 12 pound Napoleon firing solid shot, and the service charge for the 12 pounder was three pounds of cannon grade BP.

You are doing just fine.  I smile at my friends as they shake their heads and take cover.

Like the way you load Grapeshot.  I figure the point of shootin BP is to make big Smoke and BOOOOOOM.  I use a real simple recipe.  Fill the 45LC with Goex FF and squish a 250 gn big lube booolet on top.  Get a bunch of compression and enough shockwaves, smoke and BOOOOM to send the ROs and Spotters for the hills.   

[Roosterman]

I loaded up .44 WCF with a case full of 777 and sat a 200 grain RCBS Cowboy bullet on top of that with lots of compression.

Carefull, 777 doesn't like compression. Dangerous  high pressure is the result.

[Dick Dastardly]

Now, there you have it.  As said, it's a game.  You're a player and a contestant.  Depending on your choice you can be more of one or the other.  Contestants like mouse phart loads with less recoil.  Players like the game and the fun of playing "Old West".  All come for the fun.  Some have genuine limitations due to health and load to accommodate them.

I wouldn't advise Black Powder loads with air space.  All the reasons given considered, there's one more.  I ran some tests over my Ohler 33 graph with my 44 Magnum RVs.  The velocities were all over the place and the SDs were over 100.  My main match ammo in the same gun used as a control held to SDs at or under 10.  What I took from that is that pistol caliber guns prefer compressed loads when charged with Holy Black.  Your mileage may vary.  Shoot, record, take notes and report back.

As Del said, all loading is serious.

DD-DLoS

[Bryan Austin]

I am still curious about pressures from compressed loads beyond 1/16" with typical Goex and pyrodex products with the 44-40. I use 38 grains of Goex FFF and Goex Skirmish FFF. Tamped I get less than 1/8" which is almost double the recommendation for pyrodex.

Again, Goex shows 39 grains under a 200 gr bullet for both revolver and rifle. Thats a lot of compression.