.45 Schofield OK for .45 colt conversion cylinder?

[robtlah]

Howdy. I just received a couple of R&D .45 Colt conversion cylinders for my Pietta 1858s. I've read here and there in a couple of shooting forums that .45 Schofield is safe to shoot in these .45 long Colt cylinders.  .45 Colt is in short supply on the dealers' shelves around here (Albuquerque) but there are plenty of boxes of .45 Schofields for sale . I don't reload as yet and would like to try out these new cylinders so I'd appreciate any feedback I can get on this issue. Much obliged!
Lawdog Bob

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Ji,

I have two Navy Arms/Uberti Schofields that will shoot .45 Cal Cot or .45 Cal Schofield. I just bought a Codymatic (Uberti) Model 73 that was set up to shoot either of these calibers also.

I have been told that the Schofield cartridge was made with a bit wider rim (base) that can make extraction difficult unless the weapon was made for both cartridges ... that may be an old 'wives tale', but I would buy a box and cycle them through to see how the 1) the extraction system on a revolver handles them, 2) and on a rifle, wether the action will close on the weapon with a Schofield round in the chamber.

Something to watch for is that there can be powder residue left in the cylinders in the area left unused by the Schofield's shorter round ...

But the Schofield seems to have less kick (it feels like I am shooting a military Combat Masterpiece .38...). and the smaller/lighter load puts less stress on your weapon ... plus I am told by the guy who reloads mine that the Schofield .45 is actually easier to reload to cowboy loads 'cause he doesn't have to use fillers like he does with the .45 Colt cowboy loads ... hey I'm just repeating here ...

Hope this helps...

[Fairshake]

It's not a old wives tale about the rim. Try putting a 45 Schofield case in a 45 Colt shell holder and you will find that it don't fit. I shoot 45 Schofield cases all the time in my USFA's. I've also shot them in Colt and Taurus revolvers without a problem. It is said that some revolvers won't chamber them because of the rim diameter but I've not found one. They work great and are good for those BP loads where you want to lessen the recoil.

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Fairshake,

I think modern made revolvers and reproductions are made to take both rounds ... I know that is true for my Navy Arms (Uberti) Schofields ...

The problem I have seen is when one wants to fire them in a chamber that encapsulates the whole round (including rim), like in a Winchester ... I have been told that the area for the rim has to be enlarged a bit. But after enlargement, can shoot both rounds ....  as long as the weapon (and I am thinking of a Model 73 Winchster or clone) is not to fussy about LOA.

I know when I bought my Codymatic '73, I asked that it be set up to fire both rounds and it does beautifully. Before I had to carry Schofield for my pistols and .45 Colt for the Model '94 that I had ... now I only carry Schofield ... much nicer!

[Major 2]

robtlah
The answer to your question is yes  
R&D cylinder will accept the 45 Schofields...The real early ones had an issue with the rim..but ones made since
around 2002 have not.

I have a circa 2002 in my Second Gen. Colt 1860...some reloaded 45 LC I have were a tad to long (these work in my Henrys)
... Factory Black Hills will fit the length sensivtive cylinder..the shorter 45 Schofields fit just fine.

I've not set up my Henry's to shoot Schofields ..but so far they cycle fine.. yes both are 45's

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Major 2,

When I first got into cowboy shooting, I had a side eject Model 94 that had absolutely no sense of humor about longer or shorter rounds than LOA of a .45 Colt.

Reading around, I read that all Winchesters newer than the 1873 Model used a carrier that angled the shell upwards to the chamber. I have read that it was that upward slanted carrier that made it so picky about LOA.

So I ordered a Model 73 from Cody Conagher and it shoots Schofields just fine ... And I have no idea if he did anything to the chamber or if the gun was already set up for both rounds. I just know that the gun has far more capability than these tired eyes and old frame.  ... the first time I shot it was with Schofields, and some guys next to me with 'black guns' started whistling ....I fired rounds off as fast as their .45 ACP and when I was done, there was no paper in the bulls eye area....

[robtlah]

Thanks for the useful input. I wanted to be sure I could safely use the Schofields before I invested any money in them. This is really helpful. I appreciate all the comments.
Lawdog Bob

[WaddWatsonEllis]

I think the only way to be really secure about the decision would be to borrow or make some Schofield 'snap caps' and try to load them into the cylinder that you are considering buying ... or let the cylinder maker know that you intend to shoot Schofield rounds (better yet).

Then, when you do get the cylinders, go back to option one and make sure they load into the cylinder ... IMHO, I think Schofield designed the rims a bit big so that they would not fit in Colt weapons ... IMHO ... I have nothing to base this on, just a hunch.

But if they (I.e., the cylinder makers/sellers) have agreed on paper that they will provide a cylinder that fires Schofields, then you are covered if any difficulties arise ....

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Far from being a wive's tale. SAAMI specifies 45 Schofield rim diameter at .520. 45 Colt rim diameter is .512. Look it up in any good loading manual. Both rims are .060 thick.

The reason the Schofield rim needed to be a larger diameter was so the extractor of a Schofield revolver had something to grab. Nothing to do with trying to keep one type of ammo out of the other gun. As a matter of fact, a Colt will chamber Schofield rims just fine. And they did so back in the 1800s too. More on that later.

The 45 Colt round was designed for the Single Action Army, and ejection was accomplished by poking the case out from the inside with the ejector rod. No extractor was involved, so the rim did not have to be very big because all the rim had to do was keep the cartridge from being shoved into the chamber by the firing pin. As a matter of fact, modern .512 diameter 45 Colt rims are much bigger than the typical rims of 19th Century 45 Colt cartridges. Take a look at this photo. The short round is a modern 45 Schofield. Next to it is a modern 45 Colt. If you look carefully you can see how much bigger the rim is on the Schofield round. On the right is a 19th Century 45 Colt round, manufactured long before SAAMI existed. That rim is only about .505 in diameter. No way any sort of extractor could get a purchase on that rim. All it was good for was keeping the round from falling into the chamber. Simple engineering. You don't need a big rim if you don't have an extractor. Over the years, the 45 Colt rim has gotten larger, large enough that today a rifle extractor can grab it. By the way, that is also one of the reasons that no rifles were ever chambered for 45 Colt in the old days. No way a rifle extactor could grab that tiny rim.



As for all modern revolvers being able to chamber the 45 Schofield, here is a photo of a stainless Ruger 'old model' Vaquero cylinder and a Colt cylinder. Notice the difference in the design of the ratchet star. The Ruger has a simple drum, the Colt has a scalloped shape. There is more clearance built into the scalloped shape of the Colt star. That particular Ruger cannot reliably chamber 45 Schofield ammo because there just is not enough clearance between the drum and the rims. The Vaquero is basically the same as a New Model Blackhawk, and back in the 1970s when they were designed, 45 Schofield was an obsolete round. Nobody was making it anymore, so Ruger did not concern themselves with designing a revolver that would chamber it. I could make it accept Schofield ammo with a couple of swipes of a file if I wanted to, but I don't bother shooting Schofield ammo in it.



I have two 1858 Remmies equipped with R&D conversion cylinders. When I first bought them they would not accept 45 Schofield ammo, the counterbores for the rims were too small to accept the larger diameter rims. I had Happy Trails open up the counterbores to .425. As you can see, they will now accept Schofield ammo. While he was at it, Hap cut the conterbores right through to the outside of the cylinders, making little viewing windows so I can see at a glance where the empty chamber is. We did this because after opening up the counterbore there was only a thin shim of metal left in that location. So we just cut it away. If you have a caliper, measure your counterbores. If they are around .425 or so in diameter they will accept Schofield rims.



All the Browning designed Winchesters (1886, 1892, 1894, etc) use a tilting carrier. The carrier has a cartridge stop built into it. The cartridge stop is a little pivoting piece of steel that keeps another cartridge from squirting out of the magazine and onto the carrier. That is why tilting carrier rifles can be fussy about Over All Cartridge Length. The cartridges must fall within a narrow OAL window or the cartridge stop will not work properly. And tilting carrier rifles can be fussy about bullet shape, just like a 1911 is. The round enters the chamber at an angle, then it has to straighten out to continue the rest of the way into the chamber. Square shouldered bullets like semi-wadcutters can hang up as they try to enter the chamber at an angle. The toggle link rifles (Henry, '66, '73) do not employ a cartridge stop. The cartridge on the carrier is the stop. A round on the carrier prevents another round from squirting out of the magazine. A cartridge of the proper length will allow the rim of the next round in the magazine to extend out of the magazine. There is a bevel on the carrier that sweeps the offending round back into the magazine as the carrier rises. The length of the bevel determines how much variation in cartridge OAL the rifle will tolerate. The longer the bevel, the more variation it will tolerate. If the bevel is not long enough to shove a round back into the magazine, the carrier will jam on the offending rim as it attempts to rise. Toggle link rifles are not very fussy about bullet shape either, because the round is already lined up with the chamber. Just like shoving a torpedo into a tube. Already lined up and the bolt just shoves it forward. Much less problems with square shouldered bullets.

By the way, if you are shooting Smokeless ammo with fillers in it, I would find somebody else to buy ammo from. Fillers should never be used with Smokeless ammo.

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Thanks for all the time and trouble you spent in explaining all this ... I kinda knew it but did not know it well enough to put it into words ....

I was told to buy the '73 by many people when I was talking about shooting Schofield in it ... I kinda knew why, but it was really educating to see it put into words ... I just thought that the normal .45 Cal '73 Winchester just needed the chamber bored out at where the rim fits in to make it work ... because of the larger Schofield rim.

I also knew that the horizontal toggle or carrier made the weapon much less fussy that the Model 94 I also own.  Buy the way (it's with the gunsmith right now, so I don't totally remember about this), if I remember right, when I tried to put a Schofield into the chamber by hand, it seemed like the action would not close all the way. The gunsmith has had the gun for three months now, so my memory is a bit fuzzy about that ....

But thank you again for the explanation. I had a member of a reenactment gang that had an original Model 92 that kept hanging up on the blanks in just the way you explained. The forward edge of the blank round would jam against the top of the chamber ... I tried to explain to him about angled carriers being fussy about LOA and squarish shells, but could not put into words what I knew in my head ....

[Driftwood Johnson]

Take a closer look at your '73 sometime. The chamber is not counterbored for the rim. The bolt stops just short of the chamber and the rim is between the bolt face and rear of the barrel. Rim diameter does not matter on a '73. All the toggle link guns are like that.

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Driftwod Johnson,

Thanks!  I really look forward to your posts .... it seems I learn something each time I catch one of your posts .....