Crapp, er, I mean capper

[kflach]

I decided I like my fingers so I bought myself a capper. I got the Traditions Field Capper at Bass Pro Shops (http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10151_-1_10001_55509____SearchResults). It's supposed to hold both size 10 and size 11 caps, and it does, kinda...

I found that there's enough variation in the length of the size 10 caps such that they don't all fit into the capper. I also found that it doesn't squeeze the size 11 caps like I do when I put them on manually, so several of them flew off my nipples at different times while I was shooting. Obviously both situations slow things down a bit

I've been reading through the 'back pages' and found a lot on cappers. I'm convinced that I need one. I know a number of people have modified their guns so they accept a capper more easily, but I don't have those kind of tools. I know the kidney shaped ones won't fit my gun ('58 Remington NMA). So, can anyone recommend another source/model of capper besides the Traditions Field Capper at the Bass Pro Shops? Something that's available now - rather than some of the older models that were mentioned in the older posts.

I'd love to find something that held more than 10 caps as well.

p.s. I've tried the "push the cap on and seat it firmly with a dowel" method, but when I push it on it ends up actually being "on" - especially the size 11 caps - so when I use the dowel it's kinda too late. I guess my fingers aren't so good at finessing caps (but they still mean a lot to me and I want to keep 'em whole).

[hellgate]

Kflach,
When finger seating the caps, do they stay on the nipples when other chambers are fired? i.e. does recoil dislodge unfired caps? If not, then you are probably OK since you don't need to seat them with any pressure. The blown thumb was due to hard seating using a thumbnail to push with.

The capper pictured can be modified to fit better by grinding off the lip of the spring so it doesn't stick out and grinding off any brass on the tip that sticks out beyond the actual cap. That'll give you the extra reach you need for the tight Remingtons. Otherwise get the Ted Cash inline capper. It will fit Remmies just fine and holds about 15 caps.

[Fingers McGee]

What Hellgate said.

You could also get the Universal straight line capper from The Possibles Shop.  It's a double spring design and doesnt need any modification to work on Remmies.

http://possibleshop.com/s-s-cappers.html    Universal Straight Line Capper 18-60 $10.50

FM

[kflach]

When finger seating the caps, the 10s didn't fall off at all and the 11s rarely fell off, even when I didn't give 'em a pinch to make 'em oval.

Ok, I finally get it; I'd read in the "back pages" about the Ted Cash inline capper but I thought that was a generic name for the straight capper like I'm using. I see that it's a specific brand rather than a generic description.

Thanks for clarifying that - and for the link.

[hellgate]

Even with the Ted Cash inline capper I ground the lips of the two springs back so I had better access to the nipples on Remingtons.

[kflach]

hellgate,
When you say "springs," are you referring to the two black pieces of flexible metal at the tip that hold the cap in place while it's being placed on the nipple? I've noticed that they fit around the cap but then stick out (away from the rest of the capper).

[Brizco-Z]

kflach,

I have to agree with the gent, http://possibleshop.com/s-s-cappers.html  Universal Straight Line Capper 18-60 $10.50 by Tedd Cash is what I have used for years.  I got mine from Dixie Gun Works, and keep about six loaded and ready in the gun box.  I think one capper will hold enoguh for about two full stages (20 caps, I think).  They work just fine on all colts, as is and I use Rem. #10 and the Tesco nipples now too.  All my Colt replacs have the same pocket, even the pocket pistols, no problems.  Now for Remming NM type revolvers, you may file back the nibs (black metal spring tips) or best, take a dremel and hollow out the nipple window a tad for better access with a straight line capper.

I press on each cap with a little thuimb pressure on the back of the capper as the caps works onto the nipple,  If a need more access, I flip the capper over and with the back side, press it on a tad tighter, not much pressure is neede or should be used.

Good luck,

Brizco-Z

[kflach]

I trust ya'll...

...so I've ordered 2 (a bit earlier this afternoon, but thanks for the confirmation, Brizco-Z)!

[Fingers McGee]

I forgot to add a PS to my previous post; so, here it is:

P.S.  While I still have a couple straight line cappers, the only cappers I use now days are TDC revolver (or snail) cappers.  I sold my Remmies a couple years ago and ony shoot Colt style revolvers now.  Using the right pressure on the revolver capper, caps are placed and seated all in one motion, eliminating the need to use a push stick of any kind.  One of these days, I'll pick up another pair of Remmies, and will still have cappers to use with them.

FM

[44caliberkid]

I use the Ted Cash Universal Straight Line capper and the T.C. snail capper to good success.   The snail cappers can need a little tuning, mainly after you've used them awhile, the spring tension can loosen up.

[hellgate]

Kflach,
Yes, the  parts of the springs that stick out beyond the cap and support nothing are ground off. I'm sure there is a reason for the "lips" (smooth retraction off the capped nipple) but they just make it a little harder to get into the recess far enough.

[kflach]

I'll check into that (grinding the lips) when the cappers get here. They were shipped today (The Possibles Shop has consistently been good about sending my orders out quickly) so hopefully this weekend I can check 'em out.

[Montana Slim]

Discussion about seating caps......Just  a caution: When seating caps, I've found too much seating pressure causes damage to the priming compound resulting in misfires.
This is first-hand information 

Priming compouds are designed to be impact sensitive, not pressure sensitive. I know this first-hand from personal as well as professional experience    Anyone who'd like to experiment could try for themselves using a home drill-press setup and a few home-rigged fixtures.

Now, if you hold your seating dowel or capper against the cap and start tapping it with a mallet....well, that is more than just increased seating pressure 

Regards,
Slim

[kflach]

Montana, if that's the case (the pressure sensitive vs. impact sensitive statement) then why do we bother with dowels, cappers etc? That would seem unnecessary, since all that would need to be done is admonish people to gently press it on instead of hitting the cap when they apply it.

I know that people (the forum mod, Cuts Crooked - I've seen his finger picture) have been hurt by caps exploding when they were being applied, so I know it can happen. I haven't read every detail about how it happened, but even if it's a freak accident, I don't want to risk it. It would make my guitar playing even worse. <grin> I guess maybe there's an occasional manufacturer's defect???

Please note that my question isn't a challenge, but a request for information. I want to understand this better. ;-)

[Montana Slim]

I haven't seen anyone "hit" a cap when applying it...to do so would be foolish since percussion caps are impact sensitive...that is their design intent.

I do use a capper...have several (4) in fact, and recommend them. I'll clarify why I use a capper:
My fingers aren't capable of holding a cap and pressing it into place without pain, dropping caps into the works, on the ground, etc, etc......besides a capper is much faster.

I've seen Cuts finger in-person....I don't doubt it was from a discharge while capping. Now as to the "why" the discharge, I'm not certain & doubt Cuts can be 100% on the "why" other than that it happened.... while he was capping & I have no reason to disagree on this point.

Ok, just get out your dowels, cappers, etc & start cappping uncharged chambers and see...press hard....harder, then try firing the caps, or pull them off with needle-nose pliers. After the priming compound is crushed, its sensitivity to impact decreases. However, it is still a flammable compound. Different brands may behave slightly different based on their construction. Also the differing shape of the cone, particularly the face, will influence the behavior. Remember each of these is a "system" when paired with the ignition component. It's an interaction of the cap to the cone and the applied force, over time, which causes ignition.

You can also learn the sensitivity of various primer brands / types by seating primers using a closely fitting dowel inside the cartridge case while pressing/tapping the end of the dowel with the primer on a hardwood surface. The level of tapping required for a detonation is interesting and surprising.

Don't forget normal personal protective equipment for these experiments.

Regards,
Slim

[kflach]

Thanks for the info. It helps give me perspective.

My Ted Cash cappers should be in today. I expect to try them out tomorrow.

[River City John]

kflach,
One thing to check is the angle of the hammer face. Some Remington hammer faces are manufactured with a receding angle that only lets a portion of the hammer face make contact with the cap and nipple, as seen in the below picture reference. Makes for uneven performance and allows the lower portion of the cap to be blown back on the bottom, letting the cap more prone to drop off.


The solution is to dress the face of the hammer back so that when it rests against the nipple it is flush to the plane of the nipple face, thus striking the entire cap squarely and the spring action of the hammer holding the cap onto the nipple after detonation. I did not remove the hammer from the body so that I could go slow and check progress as I progressed using hand jeweler's files. I did support the hammer between thumb and forefinger while filing so that it minimized side pressures and keep from possibly battering the sear notches. The hammer is easy to remove, though.


I made a simple jig to support my cylinder, then clamped a guide on my small drill press along with a stop to prevent the guide from over-traveling and scoring the inner surface of the nipple recesses. Then just chucked a Dremel round cutter into the press and using Ballistol, or any oil as a cutting oil, slowly moved the jig forward against the guide to cut each recess. When one was done I popped the cylinder off the jig, turned it to expose the next recess and repeated. Took shallow cuts and when all six were done, simply loosened the bit in the chuck and lowered it a tad for the next series of cuts. When it got to the depth I wanted, I took some emery cloth, rolled some around a dowel end and smoothed any machining marks, then cold blued the exposed metal in the cuts. After the first use, these darkened up anyway, so you have to look to see where bare metal was exposed.



These are two typical inline, with the Ted Cash on the top. I did take files and rounded the tip to minimum surface necessary to hold the cap. Not seen is I took a little wedge of hard brass and soldered it to the underside of the brass tip, as being the gorilla I am I expect the tip to gradually bend back with repeated pressure to seat caps over time. Over engineered, perhaps, but tinkering's the fun with this hobby.



If you havene't done so, do replace the nipples with Treso. (Treso on r., stock Italian on l.) Treso nipples have straight sides and square top, hold the caps MUCH better than stock Italian nipples, which have tapered sides and round shoulders to accept all caps, but make for a loose fit. Treso's are also bored with a smaller vent hole to the chamber, which reduces blow-back considerably and helps keep the cap on. Treso are sized for #10 or #11, so check with your dealer when ordering and let them know which model of revolver, it's manufacturer, and size cap you wish to use.
The caps pictured are the most common available, and are, from left to right:
Remington#10, Remington#11, Dynamit Nobel#1075, CCI#10, CCI#11.


While you're fine tuning, beware of replacing mainspring with too light of a spring if you're considering this. Too light a spring will make it easier to cock, yes, and will still detonate the caps (unless way too light), but could allow the hammer to rebound enough to let caps blow off.


RCJ

[hellgate]

River City John,
Great photos of the modified cappers. They look exactly like mine. If I need to do an on the clock reload I will use the not Ted Cash capper that has more brass supporting the cap for pushing down on the nipple with greater force without bending anything. I thought of reinforcing the TC capper but decided just to use the stronger design if I'm in a hurry.

[Noz]

PM sent

[Steel Horse Bailey]

AS usual, River City John has done an OUTSTANDING  job of explaining a needed "fix" for some guns.

Just a word of warning: if doing a Remington (and perhaps others I'm not familiar with) remember that the cones (nipples) are screwed into the cylinder at an angle, so if you redo the profile of the hammer, make sure that the correct angle is still there.  Keeping that in mind, follow John's directions and you'll do a "bang-up"  job.