44-40 cartridge gauge?

[Capt. Montgomery Little]

DM,  Here is a pic of one of the 44-40 cases I have (stupid edit program wouldn't allow a reduction of pic with both cases). Notice the ring around the case below the neck. Don't rightly know what it is but is too far down neck to be a crimp groove. Although some might "see" a bevel in the case from ring to case mouth, the micrometer doesn't bear this out. Notice the obvious ridge at the base of the ring. This is an immediate step in case and then a normal taper to web/base.  Since this case has as yet to be resized, somebody apparently has a chamber with this shape. Wonder who? This was the older of the two cases...WRA.

[Noz]

I read this and I shake my head, and wonder why people dislike the .45 in lever gunz!

( Cuts is seriously considering saving this thread for the next time the .45 debate comes up again )

Cuts, I have seen one 1866 clone in .45 that has so far defied anyone to shoot any combination of bullets, cases and black powder for more than about 15 shots before the fouling locks it up. The second owner, after buying it cheaply, has given up on it.

[Capt. Montgomery Little]

Hey Noz,  Have they tried the 45 Schofield or 45 cowboy special?  Maybe need to just rechamber or rebarrel. Gotta love those 44-40 Winchesters. They already knew something the smarts guys of today still haven't figured out. 44-4ever!!! ;>)

[Cuts Crooked]

Cuts, I have seen one 1866 clone in .45 that has so far defied anyone to shoot any combination of bullets, cases and black powder for more than about 15 shots before the fouling locks it up. The second owner, after buying it cheaply, has given up on it.

I b'lieve ya an fully agree it happens........but fifteen shots is better 'n than hanging up the first round chambered!!!!! (and I've seen that MORE than a few times wif them bottle necked thangs!  )

[Capt. Montgomery Little]

Cuts,  Admittedly they ALL can have a round hang-up at any time for various reasons. The question still remains: what did the Winchester engineers know that made them adopt the bottlenecked cartridge configuration and why did they stick with it?  I know there were some straight case models made but they were a very small percentage.

My personal take is that if you like them and they work for you, SHOOT 'em.  If they don't work for you, just find something that does, but don't bad-mouth the others cause you may just be holdin' yer mouth wrong.

Hey, Y'all, have a wonder-filled day and enjoy the heck out of it.

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

Howdy All

      I don't own a 44/40, but I've been shooting for years, and over this time the subject of this caliber has come up several times, and from pards I've talked too, they mostly all agreed that most the problems we see today with reloading the 44/40 is just that, there wasn't that many that reloaded ammo for the 44/40 in that period of time, almost all the 44/40 ammo was factory made and to strict specs., so most of the people that used this caliber didn't have any problems and really enjoyed and swore by it, seems most of the trouble now with getting this case loaded properly is a crap shoot for most, and yet there are pards that seems to have perfected this caliber and are doing well with it, Driftwood Johnson comes to mind, so it can be done, just not as easy as a straight walled case for most.

                                      This is all I think I know

                                       tEN wOLVES 

[Cuts Crooked]

Capt,

EVERY SINGLE TIME someone brings up the problems associated with .45s and lever gunz, there is a pile on of posts telling the poor guy who was foolish enough to mention it to, "GET A 44-40 AND GET RID OF THAT .45!"
.......sooooo I kinda felt like slapping the other guys upside the head fer a change. Actually I don't think there's anything wrong with the 44-40, it's just as crappy as any other ca'tridge!

Cuts (who definately WILL be saving this thread fer posterity) Crooked

[Buffalow Red]

was at our coots shoot yesterday shooting my 66 in 44-40  ;Dother shooters complaining that i had to much powder in the shells  :Pwell i just fill er up just under the top & plant a dutchman 200 gr boolit
was told by several BP shooters to put 22-25 gr in & forget the rest, no filler needed  . a little air shace dont matter
so whats the reference on no air gap with BP

[FriscoCounty]

According to a Shooting Times article a Colt SAA w/ a 7-1/2 in barrel firing a 200 grain bullet backed by 33.0 grains of Goex FFFg had a muzzle velocity of 965 fps +/- 41 fps.  Since SASS rules limit the muzzle velocity of a revolver to 1000 fps, cutting back on the load would be prudent. 

In a 4-3/4 in barrel expect a 10 -12% drop in velocity.

For a 24" rifle, 40 grains of powder and a 200 grain bullet, I would expect a muzzle velocity in the 1200 - 1300 fps range.

Course, your mileage will vary depending on barrel diameter, bullet diameter, humidity, temperature, barrel length, crimp, phase of the moon, etc.

[Fox Creek Kid]

...EVERY SINGLE TIME someone brings up the problems associated with .45s and lever gunz, there is a pile on of posts telling the poor guy who was foolish enough to mention it to, "GET A 44-40 AND GET RID OF THAT .45!"...

FINALLY, our moderator has come to his senses, albeit a quote taken out of context!! 

[Cuts Crooked]

FINALLY, our moderator has come to his senses, albeit a quote taken out of context!! 

yeah sure....I figgered out sumpthin else too! Winchester designed the 44-40 b'cause too many cowpunchers wuz panzys 'n they couldn't handle the recoil of a real mans caliber, like the .45 Colt!

[Fairshake]

Way to go CUTS!! I love to hear them words spoken ya know 45 COLT. I never mind cleaning my 92's cause I fill them 45 COLT cases to the top and put the bullet in. Not that much of that blowback that them 44-40 shooters say we all have. The Fox Creek Kid is going to get a kick out of my next statement. Hey KID Ijust bought a 92 in 44-40. In the process of loading some up with my Goex 2F at this time. I'm having to use nickel cases as that's the only thing available at this time. I've placed a order with Starline for 1000 when they come back on line. I just figured that I would see for myself what the Kid has been talking about. That don't mean that I'm leaving my 45's though.

[Capt. Montgomery Little]

A bunch of shooters sitting around the fire talkin' guns and loads. The Cook asks, "What you boys up to now?" Whereby they all say in unison, "Just a stirrin' the pot, Cookie, just a stirrin' the pot." Whereby he mumbles "Oh s@#t under his breath and saunters off to bed.

Yes Sir, just a stirrin' the pot, folks, just a stirrin' the pot.

[Pulp]

I shoot the good old .44-40 in my rifle and one pistol.  I have the same problem with rounds not fitting in Uberti SAA.  I was told that Uberti designed the gun around Winchester brass.  Could be true as Winchester works best for me.  While I haven't tried it yet I do believe the trick about removing some of the bottom of the die is a good idea.  This AM I loaded a few Mag-Tech brass and you can actually see a sorta double shoulder where my die doesn't fully resize.  I will be shaving my die in the near future.

Here's a photo of what I'm talking about.  It's a bit blurry, but you should be able to see what I mean by "double shoulder"

[fourfingersofdeath]

This AM I loaded a few Mag-Tech brass and you can actually see a sorta double shoulder where my die doesn't fully resize.  I will be shaving my die in the near future.

I have used Magtec and Winchester brass in my Uberti 1866 (as well as a lot of other guns). The gun was never 100% reliable with the Magtec (factory cowboy loads as well as reloads), but when that run out, I bought a swag of Winchester Cowboy Ammo (my wife was ill during this period and I wasn't in a position to reload). The Winchester stuff fed as slick as frog snot. This caused me to look closely at the two cases and the MagTec's rim is noticeably bigger and thicker.

Now I use the MagTec in revolvers and the Winchester in the rifle at club shoots and practice and Winchester exclusively at away shoots. So much for having guns that use the same ammo and not getting confused on the line.

[Montana Slim]

If you happen to be using Lee 44-40 dies, and reloading for revolvers, you may find the need to grind away some material from the bottom of the resizing die. This will allow you to set the shoulder back to minimum cartidge specs. Lee performed this for me at no charge when I contacted them with my problem years ago. For some reason they did not make the die cpapble of sizing to the low end. I thought they would have corrected this by now. Its easy to do even with emory paper backed with a file, or a coarse stone. I did my own modification to another Lee sizing die (.223).

The double-shoulder some are referring, may be a displacement of brass where the commercial factory load was heavily crimped just below the seated bullet. I suppose this is extra insurance of the bullet working downward into the cartridge case under magazine spring pressure (lever rifles) or recoil in revolvers. They are concerned with increased pressure with a set-back bullet. One should check OAL of the case after resizing and trim them to uniform lenght if your planning to roll-crimp. An extra bulge at the case mouth can prevent chambering as well.


Regards,
Slim

[Capt. Montgomery Little]

Slim,  I have been using the Lee Factory Crimp Die exclusively on my 44-40s along with the shortened Lee sizing die and mine will chamber in any 44-40 I have found to include originals.  The Lee factory crimp doesn't use a roll crimp but the same style as used on modern bottleneck cases. This style of crimp eliminates any need for the double crimp. In some older cases, the double crimp MAY have totally eliminated the shoulder on Winchester cases as seen in the picture I posted above. Not sure of this hypothesis at present but it seems plausible.

[Montana Slim]

I've heard positive comment on using the Lee FCD on 44-40, but I'm a bit traditional and stick with the RC.
Besides, I have a 3-Die loading setup & would need a big change in equipment to run a 4-Die set, or would add an extra hand operation.

Regards,
Slim
(Who does use FCD on .223 Rem)