44-40 cartridge gauge?

[Dalton Masterson]

Howdy all.
I am loading up some 44-40 blackpowder rounds for a friend, and I dont have a 44-40 to double check the rounds in the cylinder. Does anyone know of a good OAL/chambering gauge? Will the Wilson one work? According to the Dillon site it is only for neck sized cases and used for trimming.
I just need to make sure that these rounds will chamber correctly for him. Thanks!
DM

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy Dalton,

Load 'em to SAAMI OAL and you should be good to go.  The Mav Dutchman Big Lube® bullet comes out the right length when crimped in the crimp grove.

I like to run my ammo thru a LEE Factory Crimp die as my last operation.

DD-DLoS

[Dalton Masterson]

DD, I think my problem was that the shoulder was not sized in the right place. He said some of the last rounds would not chamber fully. OAL is not necessary my issue, I guess.
I sold the only 44wcf I had, and now wish I still had it.

Basically I need a benchtop chamber to drop rounds into.
DM

[Capt. Montgomery Little]

Dalton,

There is a way to verify that every 44-40 you reload will fit ANY 44-40 chamber currently in use.  Remove 1/16" from the bottom of your resizing die and reset as usual in press. This is an old (and newly revived) trick.  This will set the shoulder back just enough to chamber in any 44-40. I have used this to load for Ubertis, Piettas and original Colts and Winchesters with great success. There is not enough movement in placement of shoulder to cause resizing or splitting problems either. Remember, some dies are easier to shorten than others but if you are careful and take your time, it will work.

Capt. Montgomery Little, Senior Chaplain, Grand Army of the Frontier

[Dalton Masterson]

I wondered about doing that. Glad to see some verification of it. I am using Lee dies, so it should take much to remove a little.
Will give that a try. Thanks.
DM

[Pettifogger]

The problem with the .44-40 is that the ammo and the gun chamber dimensions are all over the map.  I have case gauges and ammo that drops into the gauge won't necessarily chamber in all .44-40 guns.  The bores and throats run anywhere from .425 to .430+.  The lengths vary.  A .429 bullet will work in most "modern" .44-40s.  However, anything larger than a .427 won't usually chamber in a Colt, etc, etc.  The only way to know if particular ammo is going to chamber in a particular gun is to try it.

[Flint]

I found that the limiting factor on 44-40 is not the bore dimensions but the chamber.  As Pettifogger said, a Colt has tight chambers.  I can seat up to .428 bullets in a Colt with Winchester brass, but other brands need a 427 with a stock Colt cylinder.  I freshed out my Colt with a Brownells finishing reamer and they will take 428 bullets with Starline brass now, but not 429 diameter.

[john boy]

44-40 Dimensions ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.44-40_Winchester
List of Handgun Cartridges ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_handgun_cartridges
List of Rifle Cartridges ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rifle_cartridges
Amazing what one can find in Wikipedia!

[Dalton Masterson]

44-40 Dimensions ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.44-40_Winchester
List of Handgun Cartridges ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_handgun_cartridges
List of Rifle Cartridges ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rifle_cartridges
Amazing what one can find in Wikipedia!

How does this get me a gauge? I know the dimensions right from the numerous reloading books I have.
Also, I dont trust Wiki too terribly much, as it can easily be edited by anyone that can read it.
DM

[Pettifogger]

The dimensions are pretty much irrelevant because over the 125+ year life of this cartridge chambers have been all over the place.   Here are the SAAMI specs.

http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd4440winchester.jpg

Again, doesn't really mean much.  The best "gauge" is the gun you are going to shoot the ammo in.  I drop test several rounds in the chamber of what ever gun I am loading for.  If the round does not drop FREELY all the way into the chamber up to the rim, I go back to the drawing board and adjust the bullet OD, length, crimp, etc. until the rounds fit.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

If you don't trust Wikipedia, and I agree, I don't trust it either, perhaps this will help, the official SAAMI cartridge and chamber dimensions for 44-40. Note that unless otherwise indicated, all diameter dimensions of the chamber are +.002/-.000.




I do tend to agree with Pettifogger, 44-40 chambers can vary all over the place, they may not meet the SAAMI specs, and the only way to really know is to try the ammo in the specific gun. Perhaps you could load up just a few for him and have him try them out before you go to town and produce a whole lot.

[Dalton Masterson]

That may be my best bet DJ. 
That or talk him into sending me his cylinders to try. I think they are Rugers, so you would think they would be the same. Oh well.
Thanks again all.
DM

[Fingers McGee]

There is a way to verify that every 44-40 you reload will fit ANY 44-40 chamber currently in use.  Remove 1/16" from the bottom of your resizing die and reset as usual in press. This is an old (and newly revived) trick.  This will set the shoulder back just enough to chamber in any 44-40.

Great tip.  I was having problem with my 44-40 reloads not chambering in my Uberti Cattlemen till I figured out that my Lee die wasn't setting the shoulder back enough - although it was also out of adjustment.  Switched over to RCBS dies & the problem went away - it probably also solved a problem I was having with an AWA Lightning that didnt want to pop primers or feed right. 

FM 

[Capt. Montgomery Little]

Driftwood,   Great diagram BUT I have in my hand two OLD 44-40 cases , one marked WRA and the other marked WESTERN and neither has a bottleneck. Rather both have a definite step in the case with a neck length of  .372 and .363 respectively. OD of .440/.441 and ID of .4275 for both. Downside of step dia. is .437 (Western) and .443 for WRA. Upside of step is .455 (Western) and .445 for WRA. OACL for both is 1.300/1.3025. The odd thing about both of these cartridges is that they have been fired at least once, probably many more times as the previous owner was quite a reloader. Both webs measure .463 and the rims are beveled on the backside like the 30-40 Krag cases.

My question is: 1) have you ever seen anything like these and 2) Which manufacturer cut chambers with a definiite step rather than the bottleneck so often seen?

[Dalton Masterson]

Can you take pics of the Capt. Montgomery? Curiosity has me....
DM

[Capt. Montgomery Little]

DM,  Will try but I am NOT that computer literate so will have to see if wife will do it for me.

[Montana Slim]

Well, the SAAMI data is moderately useless, as it's a voluntary standard...as evidenced by the recent manufactured firearms and the disparity in dimensions, particularly the 44-40. You'll also find missing from SAAMI, a large number of what we old west shootist's consider to be everyday cartridges. 

As others suggest, the best method o\is to determine the tightest chambered gun the cartridges will be used in and load to fit it. Most likely this will be a SAA clone in the armory...it is for me.....If I need a "gage", I'll take the cylinder out of the revolver and use it as such, six at a time.

Regards,
Slim

[Capt. Montgomery Little]

DM,  Well, at least I have the pictures taken of my errant 44-40 cases, but still have to get them on this wire. Will seek to accompli...have my wife accomplish this tomorrow.

[Cuts Crooked]

I read this and I shake my head, and wonder why people dislike the .45 in lever gunz!

( Cuts is seriously considering saving this thread for the next time the .45 debate comes up again )

[Dalton Masterson]

Cuts....Yep.
The only reason I am loading 44-40 for this guy is because he is my gunsmith, and I have gotten really really really really good deals from him. Other than that, I have no probs with my 45s.
DM