Cartridge belts.

pony express · September 07, 2009, 12:14:40 PM

So mow I have a starter plan for a uniform, but what about the cartidge belt? S&S has so many options, 50 rd, 100 rd, blue, tan, belt plate or "C" hook?

Of course, the 100 rd is meant for the Krag, but was the 50 round used for both early on?

For starters, since I have both 45-70 and a Krag, can I get by at first with one belt? Or will I be sowing 30-40 shells all over the range if I use it for 45-70 too?

Is there a certain time frame for tan or blue? Or was that one of the "federal/state unit" differences. or did it depend on which uniform they were using?

Also, since my trapdoor is one of the late model rod bayonet versions, I'm guessing that it would go best with a mills type., and that the leather/web prairie belts would have been gone from the picture by then.

Drydock · September 07, 2009, 01:10:14 PM

I'd say you want a 50 loop tan mills belt with an "H" belt plate. 50 round belts saw service in the SAW, so thats not a problem, The Loops are the same size for either .30 US or .45-70. You'll eventualy want a blue Double row belt with "C" clips for the Krag, but for now the Tan 50 loop will do fine for both. There was a shortage of 100 round belts in 1898, so any and every 50 round that could be bought was issued.

Basicly the blue belt came with the Krag. And yes, by the early 1880s the Prairie belts were pretty much gone.

BTW the "H" belt plate was used with the later Krag belts, but was considered a dress item, clipping to the C closures, but not used in the field.

captmack · September 08, 2009, 04:56:09 PM

Carrico Leatherworks, http://www.carricoleather.com/militarybeltsholsters.html, has really good quality stuff and it's pretty affordable. I had him custom make me two canvas shell belts for CAS shooting. On mine they have 12 ga shotgun to the left of center and .45-70 or .30 cal to the right. No extra for the two different sizes.

Texas Lawdog · September 08, 2009, 05:37:16 PM

Mr. Carrico is making me a Mills belt and a Prairie belt, in 45/70 and 12 ga.

Rowdy Fulcher · September 08, 2009, 05:56:56 PM

Lawdog
David does an Excellent job .

Texas Lawdog · September 08, 2009, 06:10:53 PM

Thanks Rowdy, He comes highly recommened.

Cowtown Scout · September 08, 2009, 07:27:43 PM

He is also making me a Mills Belt with left half 12 gauge and right half 45-70, for CAS shooting in uniform.
Scout

Pony Racer · September 09, 2009, 02:46:04 PM

He made me a similar belt. I think it is 8 loops on both sides for 12 guage and the rest is 45-70.

I put my 43 spanish ammo in it and then for ease of loading two (one on each side) plain black leather 12 guage shell holders.

He also made my sword/officers belt with bullet pouch and dyer pouch.

He does awesome work

PR

captmack · September 09, 2009, 02:52:06 PM

Yeah, they make good stuff. Here's my belt in action:

edward austin cable · September 09, 2009, 11:32:18 PM

Captain Mack, in your youtube video, i noticed your knife sheath, and liked it very much.can you tell me where u got it from or did you make it yourself?

captmack · September 10, 2009, 10:57:55 AM

The sheath I got from www.thelastbestwest.com, or you can email Longfellow Deeds at longfellow@thelastbestwest.com

I traced the blade onto a piece of cardboard and sent it to them. He had his leather guy make the sheath and but cover for my Sharp's Carbine.

I then got the Sioux rosettes from www.crazycrow.com and glued them on myself.
http://www.crazycrow.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=512-100-000

captmack · September 10, 2009, 11:07:14 AM

Here is a closer look at that sheath.

Capt Mack

pony express · September 10, 2009, 09:47:53 PM

Quote from: captmack on September 08, 2009, 04:56:09 PM
Carrico Leatherworks, http://www.carricoleather.com/militarybeltsholsters.html, has really good quality stuff and it's pretty affordable. I had him custom make me two canvas shell belts for CAS shooting. On mine they have 12 ga shotgun to the left of center and .45-70 or .30 cal to the right. No extra for the two different sizes.

It Looks like good quality stuff, what's the delivery time?

captmack · September 11, 2009, 11:19:40 AM

Usually no longer than around 4 weeks.

edward austin cable · March 28, 2010, 09:25:44 AM

Capt. Mack thanks for the help. Took me a long time to find this post again, just too much GOOD stuff on here to read. But thanks again, I am going to start working on one like yours for myself.
Cable

Texas Lawdog · March 28, 2010, 10:03:15 AM

I have not seen any of the blue canvas belts anywhere. I have a white one and a tan one, but no blue one.

Drydock · March 28, 2010, 10:31:23 AM

http://www.ssfirearms.com/

'Monterrey' Jack Brass · March 28, 2010, 06:40:42 PM

Pony Express,

Following is some additional info to what others have posted, I thought it might fill in some blanks. A great reference book to consider getting is American Military and Naval Belts: 1812-1902 by R. Stephen Dorsey (Collector's Library, 2002). This is an excellent reference for the entire military cartridge belt time frame and it details quite a lot on the looped cartridge belt era.

Before the government issued a cartridge belt many soldiers altered existing belts or made/had made looped cartridge belts (pages 217-225), this would have been for the .50-70 and .45-70 and arguably other cartridges used by the army on the Frontier after the Civil War [and per D. McChristian's US Army in the West: 1870-1880 on page 35 'thimble'/looped belts made by soldiers were present on the frontier at least as early as 1867]. Then came the first issue infantry looped belt - the 1876 cartridge belt (page 227-255) for the .45-70. Regarding repros of this belt, I've seen David Carrico's work and can only assume his 1876 belt would be an excellent reproduction to buy were you interested in getting one.

The Mills belt, 1880-1902, existed in a variety of types. The 'stone' or 'dark' gray colored single-row cartridge looped belt of the early 1880s (page 256) would be the type to focus on were you to go with an early woven Mills type. I think current woven repros are only offered in khaki or dark blue, however a khaki one might successfully be dyed gray to get closer to the right color. Two-piece belt plates for an early belt would have been a bit different than later types, these being the regulation 1886 plate or the 1887 'Whittemore' plate, the latter referred to as 'Militia' plates and made under Mills' control (page 277). Of interest, a couple examples of later era Mills blue single-looped infantry belts shown in Dorsey's book have 1886 US (page 281) and 1887 NGP plates (page 279). According to Dorsey's info the double-looped Mills belts have provenance to the 1890s and are commensurate with use in the 1890s/Span-Am period. I couldn't locate any blue belts in his book with the earlier 1880 and 1882 two-piece belt plates though I might have missed something as I did only a cursory review of the material.

As Dryock points out S&S Firearms carries a couple woven Mills belts variants in blue & khaki, both 50 and 100 round types and a bunch of repro belt plates in their 52nd Anniversary catalog (2009). I haven't seen these belts personally but they likely would be a good start if you are keen on a Mills belt.

I recommend you acquire the Dorsey book or other comparable reference material to get the most detailed historical info you can and compare that against available reproductions before buying a belt, whether a pre-1876 soldier-modified 'thimble' belt, an 1876 cartridge belt variant, or a Mills belt variant. Good luck in your search.

Brass

Texas Lawdog · March 28, 2010, 06:58:20 PM

I would like to have one of the blue Mills belt, but I didn't see any waist sizes available.

Drydock · March 28, 2010, 08:28:59 PM

THere's only one size, the belt ends loop thru the closures and then back to the inside, where you adjust by moviing the end clips among the cartridge loops. You'll understand the moment you see one.

I have the Dorsey book, excellent reference, You'll want to look at Page 86 for the blue double row cavalry belt with plate, page 88-89 for the infantry belt with "C" closure, and page 91 for another blue double belt with plate.

The S&S belt is a close replica of the M1894 blue infantry double belt with C closure, the significant difference being the loops are sewn on as opposed to woven in. Many contract belts were made in just this way, so its considered a period accurate belt.