The Obvious - Suspenders vs. Vests

[kflach]

This is probably obvious, but...

I've seen many pictures of CAS shooters wearing suspenders. I've seen many pictures of CAS shooters wearing vests. I'm wondering if suspenders were worn under the vests. I don't know if this is a townie vs cowboy thing or if the townies/gambles/gunfighters etc had a higher quality of trousers.

And I guess for bonus points, at what time did people start wearing trousers with belt loops (eliminating the need for vests)?

[Shotgun Franklin]

Suspenders were very common before beltloops. Pants were worn much higher than we do now. If you needed something to hold your pants up then suspenders were the answer. The shirt was nearly a piece of under clothing. It was considered somewhat rude and crude not to wear a vest. As shirts didn't have pockets the vest pockets held most of your stuff that you needed often. I've seen one old photo of a Texas Ranger Camp where a Ranger had his vest unbuttoned, this was likely because he was well out in the brush.
I can't give you an exact date when belt loops came into fashion but it was as people began to wear less clothing. I have a pair of WWI eara clone pants with beltloops. The farther you go into the 1900s the less layers of clothing people tended to wear.

[St. George]

The answer to this one is in the 'back pages' - but in essence, you 'will' wear a vest...

Whether you wear suspenders depends upon your individual configuration - skinnier men can tighten up the back belt and do just fine, while the more 'heroically-sized' men use suspenders more often.

Showing your suspenders was considered to be an indicator of poor grooming and a lack of manners - this was the Victorian Era, and no matter what - folks tried to dress as well as possible.

Look at more photos, and you'll see a helluva lot of coats being worn - as well as ties - and this is on obvious work crews...

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[kflach]

I've been looking through and seeing the vests so I know one is in my future. I just wanted to confirm what was underneath it besides my manly muscles and a cloth shirt. <grin>

[WaddWatsonEllis]

As one of those 'heroically figured' fellas, I wore suspenders with my BDUs ....

BTW, I am writing this to say that I really like the suspenders Texas Jack sells as their 'Quigley Down Under' Suspenders.

Instead of the anacrhonistic suspender length slide adjusters, these use studs similar to what buttons a tux shirt, and uses suede front straps for the suspenders.

Mine were much too long, and I had to have the back (From the 'Y' to the yoke) shortened several inches....

But they look so much more like they belong in 1870...

[Roscoe Coles]

One thing to think about is how the various items go or don't go.  Since the waist of 19th century pants were much higher than modern ones the suspenders are much higher.  As a result, you can't wear your suspenders over your vest unless you tucked the vest into the top of your pants.  This is not something you will ever see. 

Suspenders and shirts were undergarments, and were considered to be somewhat vulgar in polite society.  You covered your suspenders and your "undershirt" with the vest.  You can also cover your undershirt with an over-shirt for a casual wear but in this case you don't see suspenders much. This is a very informal look.

[kflach]

I knew the suspenders wouldn't be worn over the vest; despite what my wife says I'm not *that* fashion impaired. <grin>

The type of look I'm working towards is one of those "Wyatt Earp" fancy dressing types. They always have a vest and a Frock coat in the pictures I've seen. Since I've never heard of suspenders being worn under a vest prior to this, I thought maybe that level of "dressing up" involved something different. I'm trying to slowly build up my wardrobe, so I've got a shirt and a pair of braces, but I may have to be a bit vulgar for a while and postpone the vest and coat until I actually own a rifle. First things first.

I'll have to look around for an image of an over-shirt over an undershirt. I've seen shirts over long-john type undershirts (a rounded neckline with no collar - similar to todays undershirts but with long sleeves) but the idea of wearing a shirt over what would be considered and outer shirt today is new to me.

Please, for Gods sake don't tell me that a regular collared shirt over a turtleneck is an option. I can't handle the thought of 19th century "yuppies." <big grin>

I'm appreciating all the feedback!

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Something that has not been covered (pun unintended) was the 'smoothing' effect of suspenders.

Whenever one wanted to make a person look rediculous, he was clothed in a vest that rode up and let his white shirt show between his pants and vest. If you have any question, look at an old Fatty Arbuckle or Laurel and Hardy routine.

The suspenders kept the gap at the bottom of a vest from appearing ... kept the pants up so that white stripe between the bottom of the vest and top of the pants from appearing. And when the waist is as big or nearly as big as the buttocks, and one has 17 to 20 pounds of gunbelt and guns pulling down on the pants, suspenderless means gaps ... kind of a Victorian version of 'Plumber's butt" ( my pardon to all those plumberiuses out there, but that is what it is known by)..... is bound to happen.

Then there is the old phrase about a 'braces (Brit for suspenders) and belt' kind of guy ... someone who liked the double security of wearing both a belt and suspenders (and was translated as a kind or anally retentive person). Well, I guess I am just anally retentive ... *L*

[Professor Honeyfuggler]

Then there is the old phrase about a 'braces (Brit for suspenders) and belt' kind of guy ... someone who liked the double security of wearing both a belt and suspenders (and was translated as a kind or anally retentive person).

That's a cotton pickin' lie, made up after braces and suspenders and galluses went out of fashion. I wear suspenders on my gun belt, and it ain't cause I'm.... you know.... what you said. It's because with my big belly it is the only danged way to keep my danged gunbelt from resting around my danged boots.

Technically they are galluses, leather suspenders with snaphooks on the ends for snapping around the belt loops on pants. I added little loops to the gunbelt to snap onto, and Eureka! Problem solved.

Back to the question that started this thread... when I wear a vest, it goes on over the braces (suspenders with loops for buttons) I wear to hold up my britches. Then the gun belt and its suspenders go over the vest. Then later in the year, a duster or frock coat over that.

'Course Sam Brown usedta wear his famous suspender and belt combo OVER his coat, but that was to keep his dress sword and pistol free of entaglement. And I gar on tee Sam Brown wasn't no... you know.... what you said.

[Professor Honeyfuggler]

One more thing... several CAS suppliers offer suspenders with built in holsters for derringers or pocket pistols. There you basically need to weigh concealment against accessibility in deciding whether to wear them under a vest or not.

With a double sided suspender holster set, plus one in your boot, plus the pair in your regular holsters, plus one in each hand, you could be totin' a heckuva lot of iron. You might need some help gettin' up stairs, but it sure would make a heckuva first impression! 

[kflach]

I've got to save some room for knives!


Big knives!!!!

<grin>

[Icebox Bob]

Here is some help = http://www.gentlemansemporium.com/victorian-clothing-guide.php

No gentleman would be without his braces and no gentleman would be without his vest except in the most intimate circumstances !!!!

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Professor,

I appologize if anyone took umbrage over the phrase ... my own waist hovers just at my hip size and means that without support pants can just slide off.....

But 'braces and belts' is a Brit phrase to describe a person who wants to be doubly or possibly triply responsible ... possibly over cautious.


While I was looking for a good example of the history of the expression, I found this interesting discussion on Braces (i.e. suspenders):


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braces_(clothing)

[kflach]

Icebox Bob, thanks for that link! I'd found that store last week but hadn't had time to go through it in depth. It has some very education marketing material!

[Professor Honeyfuggler]

Here is some help = http://www.gentlemansemporium.com/victorian-clothing-guide.php

Here's another great place: www.suspenderstore.com

Not a CAS oriented store, but they have some suitable stuff, and a selection you won't believe... including the TSA safe "Buzz Not" suspenders that get me through airport security without dropping my pants.

And very nice people, super service.

They are a good place to find the leather gallusses I was talking about, which are great for putting suspenders on a belt loop kinda pair of jeans without chewing up the fabric with those metal alligator clips.

[Professor Honeyfuggler]

I appologize if anyone took umbrage over the phrase ... my own waist hovers just at my hip size and means that without support pants can just slide off.....

No worries Pard, I was just havin' a little fun with ya. Besides, it's hard to take the umbrage of some poor bloke from a country where they think suspenders are something to hold up yer socks. And then what would you do with it anyway?

But we sure are on the same page about the dropoff below a big belly. From right where mine ends, I'm just a narrow tube all the way done, with nothing to even slightly impede the force of gravity. As my ex, who was from the South, used to say "You know I love ya, honey, but you've got no ayuss atall!" 

[WaddWatsonEllis]

I actually used some of them ..... LOL

In the military, they had these V shaped braces ... they connected like garters to the top of knee socks, and the upper two parts of the 'V' had garter clamps that attached to one's shirt tails.

So when one stood up, it pulled up one's socks and pulled down the tails of one's dress shirt .... LOL

[Mogorilla]

Belt and suspenders-Favorite line from Once upon a time in the west, Paraphrased Fonda mentions a guy-How can you trust a guy who wears suspenders and a belt, he can't even trust his pants.

[Skeeter Lewis]

Wadd, you'd be lucky to stand up at all wearing those. Skeet

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Skeeter,

One only wore the 'V' Garters with a dress uniform,

However, in another uniform, I went out the door weighing in excess of 400 pounds ... LOL