1860 sights/ aim question

[GeorgiaWolf]

hey yall,
Still new to shooting my 1860 Army
I was wondering if there is a "rule of thumb" for POA / hitting a target at close range?  (30-40 feet)   I am using 25 grains/ 454 ball and this gun really shoots low.  Gotta shoot close in due to safety. (horses and livestock)

Still playing around with the right combination. Any input as to where to aim vs distance ?  Thanks!

GW

[Deadguy]

That is a pretty close target, but about right for SASS matches.  To make it shoot higher you can use more powder, a heavier bullet, or both, or aim higher.

[hellgate]

Usually those guns will shoot high. A conical ball (LEE 44cal DC mold) that weighs 200gr will shoot higher by several inches at that range. Not all repros will accept the LEE conical which is fairly short. The ASMs will with some fiddling, the Uberti/Cimarron should, Colt 2ng Gen had better, but the Pietta has too much metal under the barrel to allow it. To change the POA/POI you can also:

1) Build up the top of the hammer a little with solder and file in the notch (not very effective but I've done it on one gun).
2) Shorten the trigger (grind down the trigger sear and re-harden) so the trigger catches the hammer sear at the top of its arc which "raises" the rear sight. I've never done that one but have Colt repros with varying amounts of over travel of the hammer beyond the cocking point and I notice how the height of the rear sight is different on some guns. Some have the rear sight picture just level with the back of the barrel and others are up above the level of the barrel depending on where the sears meet.
3) Bend the barrel up a little (did it once sideways to correct a severe windage problem and the gun now shoots dead on but gives you a migraine to sight down the barrel)

[GeorgiaWolf]

Thanks for responding !   I'll make note of the suggestions.  Anyone know how far the 1860 can fire a ball? (effective range) I have no idea!
GW

[Mako]

Low?

Wow, that's a new one for me.  Every '60 I have, or have ever owned including two original Colts shoot way high at 30 to 40 feet.
Who made that revolver?  The originals and every reproduction I have used is sighted in for 75 yards or more.  That was the military philosophy of the day, which makes them harder to shoot at realistic pistol ranges.

You've already been given some good advise on raising the point of aim.  25 grains is a mild target load, try the martial loading of 30 grains and it will hit higher.  A handgun is a dynamic gun platform.  The pistol will recoil before the ball leaves the barrel.  Try it you'll see what we mean.

~Mako

[GeorgiaWolf]

Mako,
Yep, ....I had a paper plate on a big tree stump, and to hit it, I had to aim a few inches above the top of the paper plate and to the right.  Thanks for your post!

[Ransom Gaer]

GeorgiaWolf,

That is a new one to me too.  My 1860 Armies tend to shoot high.  I'd definitely crank the load up to 30 grains.  That is what I normally shoot at cowboy matches in my '60's.  Even with that heavier charge the recoil is very mild.

Ransom Gaer

[GeorgiaWolf]

OK,... thanks...I'll see if the load makes a difference.  BTW, it'a a Pietta.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

OK - I'm corn-fused.  The rest of us shoot high.  Or our guns shoot that way.   

You could also check to see if you're anticipating the shot and trying to compensate for any perceived recoil.  (NOT trying to belittle you or your shooting habits, just suggesting you get a friend to watch YOU, not what you shoot at.)

I'm with the others.  ALL of my Colt's (3 - 1 Colt 2nd Gen. and 2 Ubertis - and yes, I know the relationship between & betwixt  Uberti & Colt  ) shoot high, and as Mako said, the 60s were specified by the military to shoot to a 75 yard "zero."

It's pretty interesting as to why 75 yds. and explains a lot.


Back then, an Infantry man was expected to be able to - starting with a loaded rifle - fire, load,fire, load, fire, load, and fire all in one minute. (4 shots, 3 loads)  At the same time, a "charge" (bayonet type, not powder charge  ) generally started from about 400 yds from the enemy line, and a soldier could cover ground, at the trot from 400 yds to about 75 yds in that same minute.  (Keep in  mind: the soldier had on his pack and didn't run, per say, just a fast trot - or what the Army calls nowdays, a "range walk.")  Since generally only officers (and Cavalry) had pistols, they were supposed to be able to hit the charging enemy from 75 yds to bayonet/hand-to-hand distance.

Hence, the 75 yd. requirement for the Army revolvers.

[Montana Slim]

Yes, mine all tend(ed) to shoot high of the sights...still do a bit, I reckon, but I'm used to sighting/shooting them.
The pistol is capable of better shooting than most of us can use. At distance in particular...at 100 yds, 2-hand hold (normally a duelist) I have been able to hit a 10"x12" rectangular steel plate with some regularity, with many close misses.

Up close (SASS distances) my pistols shoot about 6" high, so I aim at the bottom 1.3 of the target (aim small, miss small). With daed-on hold, my pistols shoot dead-on at 50 yds using a close 6 o'clock hold.

If there is a source for information stating revolver sights were regulated for 75 yds, I'd be interested.
I have found many individual requirements for today's  small arms are based on tradition. The current distance for military handgun/ammunition performance is set at 50 yds...I'd be surprised it it has been that standard for the past 150 years.

Regards,
Slim

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Makes sense to me.  (50 yds.)  That's about all you can expect to be anywhere NEAR effective at incapacitating a real target with a 9mm.  Or most ANY Military pistol round.

Besides, in today's Military, a pistol is really a "feel-good" last chance weapon.  It provides a little needed comfort if things really go to H..L!  I know that if my tank had gotten knocked out and I somehow (miraculously) survived, I'd be in real trouble if all i had were a pistol.  BUT ... the one time I actually NEEDED my pistol during Desert Storm, I was very happy that the dang thing worked as advertised and ended the confrontation.  (I was walking to another unit, by myself, at about "O-dark thirty" [2:30 AM] when I had to defend myself against 2 wild dogs who thought I might make a tasty snack.)

[Roosterman]

You can file the muzzle to change the point of impact. Both of my '60 armies are done this way so they  both shoot exactly in the same place which is handy in a SASS match. They shoot 3" high at 21'.

[hellgate]

Roosterman,
How is the muzzle filing done to change POI? I've heard of it for shotguns but never knew which side to file to make the bullet go the desired direction. It seems an easier thing than bending a barrel.

[Roosterman]

I Think you file on the opposite side of wher you want the ball to go....if that doesn't work file on the opposite side.....poor memory....

[Noz]

If he hadn't said this was a Pietta I would think that he had the classic Uberti problem with the short arbor and a tight wedge which would tip the barrel up and make it hit higher than the sights?

You might check the arbor length.

[44caliberkid]

Effective range?  Well, we had a stage at a shoot replicating Bill Hickock's kill shot at 75 yards.   The target was a man shaped sillhoette with strrl plates on it.  I hit him 3 times with my Uberti 1860.
   As Steelhorse said, I'd have someone check you for flinching.  I used to do this in the army by handing the shooter the weapon and have him fire, but it might or might not be loaded.  When the pistol would click, and the guy would about jump out of his boots, we had a flincher.
   Have someone else cap the pistol and leave a cap off, unknown to you.   When you get to that chamber. you'll know if your flinching .  If by yourself, just spin the cylinder  before you start shooting and don't look to see if there's a cap.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

I think it's a matter of semantics.  He said the gun shot low and we all were amazed. In a later post, he said the gun shot high of the point of aim and called it "shooting low" because the barrel was lower than where it hit.  As we know, that actually means the gun was shooting high.

Semantics.  I say tomato, you say tomato ... wait, I guess you have to HEAR tomato spoken to get my meaning. 

Georgia Wolf, have fun! 

[hellgate]

Sheesh! If the gun is shooting high then what I have done is to grind down the top of the hammer and recut the notch a little deeper to "lower" the rear sight. Otherwise you need to install a higher front sight which is not too difficult with a brass blade and epoxy glue. BTDT too

[Mako]

I think it's a matter of semantics.  He said the gun shot low and we all were amazed. In a later post, he said the gun shot high of the point of aim and called it "shooting low" because the barrel was lower than where it hit.  As we know, that actually means the gun was shooting high.

Semantics.  I say tomato, you say tomato ... wait, I guess you have to HEAR tomato spoken to get my meaning. 

Georgia Wolf, have fun! 

Steel Horse,
I think you misread what he said... He is telling us the pistol shoots lower than the point of aim,  read what he said again.

Mako,
Yep, ....I had a paper plate on a big tree stump, and to hit it, I had to aim a few inches above the top of the paper plate and to the right.  Thanks for your post!

He is having to aim OVER the target instead of UNDER like all of the rest of us.  It's not "tomato and tomahto," it's a matter of high and low...

~Mako

[Steel Horse Bailey]

You're right, Mako.  I mis-read.

I was reading Montana Slim's post and thinking it was Georgia Wolf's. 


OOPS!

Sorry