NCOWS guncarts

[Daniel Nighteyes]

Daniel,
We have a posse in southern California, The Hat Creek Regulators. Now they are out of Bakersfield, I've been to Bakersfield and I think that is southern Cal. I can guarantee you that Joss House and his gang don't use gun carts or beach umbrellas. Heat is just another excuse to use a modern conveyance for what ever you want to bring to a match.

Bill,

Don't misunderstand me.  I wasn't advocating for NCOWS' use of gun carts; I was just responding (with what I erroneously thought was a touch of humor) to River City John's rather tongue-in-cheek question.  This is an NCOWS topic board and an NCOWS thread.  Since I'm not an NCOWS shooter, anything I may have to say should have little or no impact.

My CAS sports (W3G and SASS) require 4 guns per stage, typically with 8 stages per match.  Eight stages usually mean around 175 rounds of 45 Colt and 50 rounds of 12-gauge, plus about a gallon of water in the summer.  Add to that a small trauma kit and a few gun-cleaning and -repair tools, and you're beginning to talk some weight.

At the age of 63, and with my neck, back, knees and ankle the way they are, while I could possibly carry all of that around all day, I ain't a-gonna.

So your point about "less guns" is a good one...

Regards,

-- Nighteyes

PS  I think Bakersfield is more properly considered "central California", being as it is located in the San Joaquin Valley.

[kflach]

I've seen it asked "what other options are there?"

For those of us that shoot Working Cowboy, are slings an option? I'm brand spanking new at this so I don't know if that's a stupid question or not. I don't know if the older guns were set up for gun slings, I don't know if they were in common use during the period, and I don't know if there's any way to lock the lever open while you carry it slung over your shoulder (pointing up) so it's considered "safe".

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Howdy pards!

Very interesting and some very clever humour, too!

I've been thinking long and hard about this problem.  Obviously, 19th century shootists didn't lug gun carts around to fights.  It would have looked ludicrous for Doc, Wyatt, Morgan and Virgil to be pulling their carts down Fremont Street to the alley behind the OK. Their legend would have been comedic rather than heroic had they done so.

But most period gunfighters didn't have to contend with 2 pistols, a long gun, and a shotgun, along with hundreds of rounds, earplugs, eye shields, and all the other accoutrements of their modern-day counterparts.

So what to do?

After careful historic research I have come up with suggestions for guncarts which, if parked discreetly near the firing line, might be less obtrusive than our modern, umbrella-bedecked outrages. To whit:

1) The scale replica gypsy cart. Merely saw a hole in the roof for barrels.  Add midget gypsies for true authenticity.

2) Antique plow.  You can tie your long guns to the tines in the rear.  Disadvantage: hard to pull from stage to stage, but if doing so you might scatter a few seeds along the way for future range improvement.

3) The scale replica hearse. No explanation required.

4) The surrey.  Entire posse can use this cart, just add gun racks.  Posse can push this from stage to stage.

5) For our northern brothers, the miniature sleigh. Posse can sing Christmas carols as the glide through the stages.

6) My favorite:the goat-gun-cart. The advantages of having a goat to pull that heavy load of long guns, cartridges, sun screen, water bottles, cell phones, etc., is obvious. In the first example, merely replace children with guns. This is, on the whole, not a bad rule in general.

(images deleted for reasons of space)

The Yellowhammer Cowboy Goat Cart! Patent Pending!

JD - I like the way your mind wanders into the "options" territory!  I ESPECIALLY like the sleigh suggestion!  Singing Christmas carols, indeed!


Speaking of "options:"

I've seen it asked "what other options are there?"

For those of us that shoot Working Cowboy, are slings an option? I'm brand spanking new at this so I don't know if that's a stupid question or not. I don't know if the older guns were set up for gun slings, I don't know if they were in common use during the period, and I don't know if there's any way to lock the lever open while you carry it slung over your shoulder (pointing up) so it's considered "safe".

kflach, Slings weren't common, but they were certainly available.  The military has used slings for centuries.

At the clubs where I shoot, the Scarlet Mask Vigilance Society http://home.comcast.net/~tcrange/SMVS/smvsindex.htm , and the Great Lakes Freight & Mining Co. http://home.comcast.net/~glfmcposse/

Here's an option that I use:  when I do decide to shoot shotgun, I carry it in a leather, fringed sheath they I added a latigo leather sling to.  (Latigo is a special curing process that makes VERY strong leather and is often used for saddle ties, bootlaces and anything that requires great "pull" strength.)  I simply loop it over as if the shotgun had a sling.  Since the rules say that when out of a guncase the action must be open, I simply leave it in the sheath until I get to the weapon racks on the range.  Then, as soon as I take it out, I open the action and insure that the weapon is (still) clear and that I haven't left my A-Zoom snap-caps in the chambers.  This sheath is for my shoot-gun, but it can be done with my rifle as well, I simply haven't added any latigo "string" on my other rifle sheaths ... I have 5 types.  I can put all my needed ammo in either my saddlebags or one of my "carpetbags."  My pistol (pistols if needed) is holstered and worn, the saddlebag is over the shoulder, rifle open and clear in hand and that still leaves me a hand free for my cane, which, depending on my meds, is needed for me to walk fairly normally. 

Who needs a packmule!  I AM a packmule.  I guess we're lucky here in Indiana in that the parking area is less than 200-250 yds. from the range shooting area.

Options ... I love options and choices.

[J.D. Yellowhammer]

Howdy pards!

Very interesting and some very clever humour, too!

JD - I like the way your mind wanders into the "options" territory!  I ESPECIALLY like the sleigh suggestion!  Singing Christmas carols, indeed!

Thanks, Jeff!  I was beginning to think I'd inadvertantly placed some humor in a very, very serious topic. 

[kflach]

JD, I appreciated the humor as well.

Steel Horse, That's a brilliant solution! I didn't know that a sheath was considered a case so this hadn't crossed my mind.

OK, I admit it - I was focused on figuring out how I'd be able to pack a hearse into the trunk of my Toyota Carrolla. Since one of the persona's I've been considering is an undertaker that seemed appropriate.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Thanks, Jeff!  I was beginning to think I'd inadvertently placed some humor in a very, very serious topic. 

Good humor is ALWAYS welcome, JD!  Even MY humour is welcomed ... listened to ... tolerated.    By the way, I enjoyed your website.  Do you go by Jeff, too?


But it IS a kinda serious topic.

JD, I appreciated the humor as well.

Steel Horse, That's a brilliant solution! I didn't know that a sheath was considered a case so this hadn't crossed my mind.

OK, I admit it - I was focused on figuring out how I'd be able to pack a hearse into the trunk of my Toyota Corolla. Since one of the persona's I've been considering is an undertaker that seemed appropriate.

The hearse would be great - but kinda difficult to handle.    You might keel over trying to get it from stage to stage.        Then  you'd REALLY NEED IT!

[James Hunt]

Recommended NCOWS guncart.



Unquestioned authenticity.

(spectators are discouraged from wearing open toed shoes at events where these conveyances are employed)

[Roscoe Coles]

Interesting stuff.  I think there is something to the claim that gun carts lead to a tendency to bring way too much stuff along.  I know that we have to bring quite a bit of stuff but I have seen the trend in SASS to double the requirement in the way of having "spares."  I have seen folks carrying around two complete sets of guns, way too much ammo, spare parts and tool kits pretty much because they can.  Even stranger, I have seen folks in sass carry around different ammunition in case they need to deal with knock downs.  In the period very few people had a handgun, rifle and shotgun (let alone two handguns) and I'm as sure as I can be that no one carried around four revolvers, two shotguns, two rifles and specialized ammunition, just in case. 

It should not be that complicated.  How much do you really need to shoot a match?  You need your guns, your ammo, your glasses, your hearing protection and maybe some water.  So bring a canteen, put your glasses and your earplugs in your pocket, carry your guns and put your ammo in a sack or some saddle bags.  What else do you need?  Personally, I think its less trouble to carry my stuff than to drag around an overloaded gun cart.

I do like the idea of having a period conveyance, like a wagon, goat cart or pack animal to carry the gear but few could make it work.  I would even accept a period automobile (a pre 1899 horseless carriage).  But I hate the gun cart.

[Delmonico]

One of these would work, one could get a big wagon and tote lots of stuff.



this one was built in 1910, but like a SAA of the same vintage it's pretty much the same.

[River City John]

Daniel,

now let me get this straight, you want to have a "mine's-bigger-than-yours"- contest over who suffers the most in the humidity? I mean, the winner would actually be the loser!

I do enjoy your posts here in CAS City.

RCJ

[J.D. Yellowhammer]

Good humor is ALWAYS welcome, JD!  Even MY humour is welcomed ... listened to ... tolerated.    By the way, I enjoyed your website.  Do you go by Jeff, too?

But it IS a kinda serious topic.

The hearse would be great - but kinda difficult to handle.    You might keel over trying to get it from stage to stage.        Then  you'd REALLY NEED IT!

Thanks again, Jeff.  I actually go by J.D.  My full name, Jefferson, has too many syllables for most people to reliably get out of their mouths.

I'd love to have a 1/4 scale hearse for my guns, but I think I'd still get in trouble for NCOWS purposes.  However, I still have hopes for the goat cart, and I defy anyone who challenges me, if I can succeed in training a goat! 

My mother used to ride around in a goat cart as a child in Alabama, and while that wasn't in the 19th century, it wasn't too far away from it.  The little town she lived in hasn't changed much (if you've seen the book or movie Fried Green Tomatoes, you have an idea how it looks. The story took place in the same neighborhood).

Del--Shame on you!  A 1900's tractor?! Twentieth century, man, twentieth!

[Delmonico]

Daniel,

now let me get this straight, you want to have a "mine's-bigger-than-yours"- contest over who suffers the most in the humidity? I mean, the winner would actually be the loser!

I do enjoy your posts here in CAS City.

RCJ

I think that prize goes to the camp cook.

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Hey Del....
I got some good footage of you cleaning a Sharps rifle while at Rock Creek station. I've got the DVD from RCJ, and permission from them to use some of the contents, and your footage will be in the promo DVD as will some of the other stuff on that DVD.

Bill

[Delmonico]

Hey Del....
I got some good footage of you cleaning a Sharps rifle while at Rock Creek station. I've got the DVD from RCJ, and permission from them to use some of the contents, and your footage will be in the promo DVD as will some of the other stuff on that DVD.

Bill

I don't have any other video or you'd be welcome to it, BTW that was taken in 2000 down there, had forgot all about it.  BTW check out the guy running toward the bushes at the shoot out, good fall, to bad it wasn't all fake.

If you want any stills let me know what you are looking for.

[Daniel Nighteyes]

Daniel,

now let me get this straight, you want to have a "mine's-bigger-than-yours"- contest over who suffers the most in the humidity? I mean, the winner would actually be the loser!

I do enjoy your posts here in CAS City.

RCJ

[Daniel Nighteyes]

My mother used to ride around in a goat cart as a child in Alabama...

I knew it - I knew it - I knew it!  Anybody with the name "Yellowhammer" just GOT to be from Alabama!!!! ('Cept we'd prob'ly say it as "yellah-hammah" -- an' likely precede it with "Rammah-Jammah", right?)

<----- from South Alabama

The little town she lived in hasn't changed much (if you've seen the book or movie Fried Green Tomatoes, you have an idea how it looks. The story took place in the same neighborhood).

There's hundreds of little towns like that all over Alabama and Mississippi -- probably Georgia too, if you look along the back roads.  And, in every small town that's worth calling a town there is - or was - most likely a "City Cafe" or "Town Cafe" or some such.  That describes the Whistle Stop Cafe to a tee.  Usually doesn't look like much from the outside, but they're always crowded because they serve excellent food!

BTW, Fried Green Tomatoes is my favorite movie about the South.  They got it dang near perfect.  Of course, that's because the author, comedienne Fanny Flagg, is from Alabama.

[Pancho Peacemaker]

Regarding the "too many guns comments",

My view point:  I like to shoot.  I like to shoot alot. 

My day job keeps me very busy with long hours and the 1 or 2 opportunities a month where I can go to a match, I usually always sign up for the 4 gun class . . . so I can shoot 4 guns.  Realizing that an NCOWS match is a competitive shooting sport event, I don't see any reason to frown on folks that "take too many guns" to a match.  I usually go to a match with 2 rifles, 2 shotguns, 3 to 4 handguns, and sometimes a pocket pistol and big bore rifle.  If I see a stage where my 24" barrel sporting rifle will be more handy, I'll use it.  If the 20" short rifle allows me to poke through a window quicker, I'll use it.  I agree with OCB in frowning on short strokes and other non-period technology. 

Some big matches are costly to enter and require an extended drive (11 hours each way to the Nationals this year).  I see no reason not to bring some 'back-up guns', in case you have a mechanical failure.  If you've shot CAS long enough, you know these failures do happen, even with well maintained guns.

Is this historically correct . . . no, but is it fun . . .yes.  I almost alway have a gun cart that is compliant with NCOWS regulations.  The only time I don't is when I choose to shoot working cowboy.  If I was attending an event that was an actual reinactment, I would have no gun cart, because they did not exist in the period we observe.  Do remember that NCOWS matches are not a true reinactment, but rather a period focused shooting match.

As long as NCOWS allows such, I will shoot my four gun class and usually will carry them in my NCOWS legal conveyance.  I will enjoy the match along side my compadres competing in the shooting classes which they enjoy.

Pancho

P.S.:  Bad hats should be outlawed.

['Monterrey' Jack Brass]

All – What an excellent thread and it is providing for some excellent discourse.

Gun carts are, indeed, not a good thing in a general sense. Should they be outlawed in NCOWS? Were it brought to a vote there would be no objection from me to ban them outright. Also would go for a ban on bad hats. Next are the electronic timers and boiler plate targets.... (please forgive my indiscretions, I'm a bit right of center regarding the PC movement....)

A couple of concepts for more historically acceptable conveyances in lieu of gun carts follow.....

For the regular chap:



For the more dandy-ish/dude and civilised sort of chap:



Of course there are haversacks and the like as well. Such period things, to not include gun carts, would suffice at NCOWS events in a reasonable world.


Brass

[Delmonico]

Jack, you can add samwhiches from pre-sliced bread to that, PM me if you want, I have a funny story I was told about that several years ago.

[pony express]

I've seen it asked "what other options are there?"

For those of us that shoot Working Cowboy, are slings an option? I'm brand spanking new at this so I don't know if that's a stupid question or not. I don't know if the older guns were set up for gun slings, I don't know if they were in common use during the period, and I don't know if there's any way to lock the lever open while you carry it slung over your shoulder (pointing up) so it's considered "safe".


You can make a removable sling, just to carry it with. A strap with loops at each end, put one loop over the muzzle, the other in the trigger guard area of the open lever. You have to experiment with the length, as long as the strap is not too long, it can't come off of the muzzle. May not be PC, but as soon as you get to the gun rack, then you can just roll it up and stash it in the saddlebags or whatever you're carryng your ammo in. That's what I sometimes do at the local SASS shoot, when I pack everything out there on a motorcycle. If there was an NCOWS posse nearby, that working cowboy class would be just right for a biker-shooter.