interested in a single action revolver

[justin22885]

im looking for an old fashioned single action cartridge revolver, i had a remington 1858 clones i really liked so the 1875 and 1890 interest me as well, but id like an 1875/1890 or colt SAA clone that is actually safe to carry with six in the cylinder... do any modern clones offer any such mechanisms?

[Bangor Dan]

Ruger Vaquero, and (I think) the Beretta Stampede.

Bangor Dan

[justin22885]

do the cimarron single actions have any added safety allowing one to be safetly carried loaded with six?... they make some SAA clones and an 1890 clone that i like

[River City John]

do the cimarron single actions have any added safety allowing one to be safetly carried loaded with six?... they make some SAA clones and an 1890 clone that i like

                                               Do Not Carry Six Rounds In The Cylinder.

For the life of me I do not understand why you would be concerned with the ability to carry six loaded rounds as a buying decision. No need to foster that bad habit.
If you've an interest in getting involved in this sport, then read the rules. It is about safety. The revolver is NEVER loaded with six rounds before beginning a stage.

If you're a wanna-be modern day gunslinger who thinks they need the extra firepower, then just go buy an automatic and be done with it.



And the answer to your question above is NO.
RCJ

[Professor Honeyfuggler]

Dan's bangor on...

The "five live" rule is cast in concrete in CAS, even if you have a safety equipped six-shooter. And for side match pistols with only five cylinders, you have to be able to hammer down into a safety slot between cylinders if you want to load it fully. I have a little .22 Magnum Pug revolcer from North American Arms that employs that method of safe carry. 

Historical records show there were a lot of accidental discharges back in the day from dropped guns. Dropping a loaded revolver at a CAS shoot today, with the hammer down on an empty chamber ,will earn you a Match Disqualification, but no accidental discharge. Safety first.

Sidebar: I was watching an old B Western on DVD the other night and counted 11 shots that one guy got off in a fast fire fight. I guess it musta been the prototype of the legendary Colt 12-Shooter that never made it into production. 

[justin22885]

i really dont carry what CAS rules are, and i really dont care what was historically practiced, i have an interest in older firearm technology, single action/black power revolvers especially, but im not going to handle something if its major design flaw has not been taken care of, and from further reading ive read that the cimarron and ubertis do in fact have the added safety...

if you think its a firepower issue, do you honestly think i would buy a gun that was capable of firing rounds not much more powerful than 300ft/lbs of energy? thats only about 50% more powerful than a hot .22lr, historically they had very little energy, even less than a modern 45acp or 9mm

[River City John]

justin22885,
perhaps we got off on the wrong foot. I know you are new to CAS City so I will go into a bit more detail why I seemed to answer your honest question in such a no nonsense way.

You want a traditional single action cartridge sixgun for General purpose - recreation and personal defense, and've asked what would be some hot loads and said you want to carry it loaded with six. (I do have several Cimarron Uberti SA, one being the copy of the Remington 1875. The safety you mention on my firearms is engaged and disengaged by fumbling with a small screwdriver to turn a tiny screw that can only be exposed by putting the hammer on half-cock. It would likely make carrying six rounds a moot point in self-defense. Unless of course your attacker will hold off 'til you can fumble the revolver out, dig around and find that stupidly small screwdriver, in the dark . . . )

It seems odd to pose these questions seeking advice on how to circumvent what is absolutely in opposition to everything western action shooting organizations have so carefully established as responsible, safe gun handling in their game rules.

You will find that people in here will be more than willing to help guide you based on CAS rules and practices.
So, if this is truly just a very awkward initial attempt to explore this hobby, then I would suggest reading a lot of the backlog of archived postings in these Forums.

RCJ
 

[Old Doc]

The guy asked a simple question and Bangor Dan answered it. He didn't ask for a sermon.

[River City John]

The guy asked a simple question and Bangor Dan answered it. He didn't ask for a sermon.

I have self-edited.
I will admit I do get a little preachy at times.

Better, Old Doc?

[Dirty Brass]

It would appear the gentleman was looking for information on some of the new clones avaiable and whether or not they had the safety mentioned. Does not appear he is interested in CAS shooting or guidelines. Perhaps he is just asking here because of the vast amount of shooters that use these clones in this forum. ? Look at it as a compliment to the knowledge base available here 

[Pettifogger]

Cimarron doesn't make guns, it only imports them.  Most of the importers handle Uberti firearms.  Uberti clones of the Colt SAA are NOT safe to carry with six loaded.  (They have a goofy base pin rod safety that allows them to be imported, but they are a crude safety.)  Sort of a simple rule of thumb.  If the firing pin is mounted on the hammer it is not safe to carry with six chambers loaded.  The only single actions that are safe with six are the ones with a frame mounted firing pin and a transfer bar.  Period.  (Some copies of 19th Century conversion revolvers have a frame mounted firing pin.  HOWEVER, they are not safe to carry with six as they have no transfer bar.)

[justin22885]

dirty brass is exactly right, i have no interest in cowboy action shooting, i dont even like western movies, i do have an interest in the technology though, from what i had thought before, standard pressure 45lc loads were capable of 300ft/lbs which is about what a +P 380 can do... but doing further research, ive found SAA clones can do about 600ft/lbs which is close to standard 357 magnum loads.. not bad at all... i dont neccessarily need the 1200ft/lb buffalo bore loads as it seems the blackhawk is the only single action that can handle those... so power issues are fine, and any SAA can be hunted with

what i was really looking for is an SAA with that perfect balance of an origional colt saa, but with the added safety of a transfer bar so that i can be sure its not going to accidently fire... you may not carry six of youre carrying it... but since ill mostly be target shooting, being able to use that extra chamber is nice (i wouldnt want to get bumped, drop it, and shoot it someone else by accident)

do the remington 1875s have the same problems as the colt SAA with being dropped? because to be honest i would really like an 1875... one of my favorite revolvers was the 5 1/2" 1858 i had, and to be able to get a similar look and feel in a cartridge design would be nice... so what sort of safety issued did those have? and is it still possible to drop the hammer between rounds such as it on the 1858s or did they change to a ratcheting mechanism that doesnt allow that?

[Pettifogger]

The Remington 1875 and 1890 have the same basic lockwork as a Colt.  So, they aren't safe with six rounds.  19th Century gun makers weren't constrained by the threat of litigation that modern gunmakers are subject to.  Even so, knowledgeable single action owners back in the day only carried the gun with five rounds unless they were in a gun fight or were going to load and fire right away.  If you want the size and feel of an original Colt with the safety of modern lockwork there is really only one gun -- the Ruger New Vaquero.  (The original "Vaquero" was larger than the Colt.)

[justin22885]

well after doing the comparison and research... if i want the look and feel of an origional SAA with the added safety of a transfer bar mechanism.. i would certainly pass up the new vaquero, and go for the beretta stampede as its a much more historically accurate desgin (based on the uberti models) with just the new bar added... so the question of if i go with an SAA, what would i choose has been answered... the stempede

but the SAA isnt the only single action out there... other strong candidates are the remington 1858 cartridge model (with loading gate).. which i believe has a transfer bar like device..., and the 1875 which is one i would get hands down if it was safe as a beretta stampede... and it doesnt really matter if im carrying it or not, but at a range, im going to load six reguardless.... if someone accidently bumped me while changing hands after a reload, it fell, went off, and shot someone.. thats just not acceptable... and i dont want to hear a lecture about keeping it pointed in a safe direction because if dropped, no direction is safe, .... and though ive NEVER dropped a gun before.. its not impossible..and if i pay for six.... i want six, no one wants a "six shooter" so they can fire five at a time...

i would certainly like to talk with some remington experts though as i personally do like the 1875 more than the SAA.. and might just get one in .44-40 instead

[River City John]

justin22885,
I have a Uberti Remington 1875 and it is exactly like any traditional SA, the firing pin is mounted on the hammer and when the hammer is down the pin protrudes through the recoil shield.

I also own one of the cartridge conversion '58 Remingtons. The spring-loaded firing pin is captured in the recoil plate, and when the hammer is down, it also pushes the firing pin beyond the back surface of the recoil plate into the chamber. When you put the hammer on half-cock, the spring expands, letting the pin retract so that the cylinder can turn freely.

(I don't quite understand why you are limiting yourself in your buying decision by being fixed on the idea of carrying six rounds. Particularly since you seem to have historical accuracy high on that same list of 'givens and druthers'. )



RCJ

[justin22885]

well, no one wants an accident, and a traditional model could still accidently discharge while reloading if the sear is worn and the hammer is bumped so.. its just a safety issue... would rather be safe than accidently shoot someone or something i didnt want to.. so its mor of a "what-if" scenario

[justin22885]

eeeh.. screw it, as long as the remington 1875 has a similar feel to my old 1858, ill go with that, i really liked my 1858.. wish i didnt have to sell it... and everyone and their grandmother has an SAA clone... so ill be a bit different from most and get the remington..

so itll probably be a cimarron 5.5" 1875 model in probably .44-40 wcf if i can manage to get a reloading setup for it

[Yankee Will]

I like my 1875 so much, I'd use it as my concealed carry gun...if it wasn't so dang BIG!

[Professor Honeyfuggler]

well, no one wants an accident, and a traditional model could still accidently discharge while reloading if the sear is worn and the hammer is bumped so.. its just a safety issue... would rather be safe than accidently shoot someone or something i didnt want to.. so its mor of a "what-if" scenario

I witnessed another scenario of an "unintended" discharge at a SASS shoot a couple of weeks ago. The shooter was midway through a five round pistol stage, and like some folks do, he lowered the muzzle as he reached for the hammer spur with his thumb to cock it for the next shot. One problem with that technique is it tends to put the weight of the gun against the trigger finger, which it obviously did in this case. Then his sweaty (it was hot as hell) thumb slipped off the hammer spur, and "BANG," he put a round into the ground just a few feet in front of him. Earned him a Stage Disqualification, which I thought was overly generous on the part of the RO, but it wasn't my call.

It's important to remember that even with the improved steels, geometry improvements, and modern precision machining of today's SAA replicas, the basic design is 150+ years old, and is very primitive technology compared to current generation handguns. Worn or misadjusted parts can easily betray you, just as operator errors can, like the example I gave. That's why so much attention is paid to safe muzzle directions, the 170 rule, showinmg that your action is clear when your done,  etc. at matches, so that when an accidental discharge occurs, as they will, they're unlikely to hurt anyone.