Another 1870s Photograph

[Bryan Austin]

Found this while surfing the net. Suppose to be an 1870s photo

[Bryan Austin]

And another, date unknown

[WaddWatsonEllis]

The second photo is kinda interesting. I would guess 1890 to 1910. It looks like the fella is carrying an S&W 'lemon squeezer' or perhaps an Iver Johnson ... I would guess .32 to .36?  And the East is definitely showing its influence in the leather bloused riding pants .... and possibly pearl or bone grips on the pistol?

[J.D. Yellowhammer]

Although to my uneducated eye the pistol in the right-side rider's hand looks like a DA, which could argue for a later date, the photo itself looks like a tintype.  I have a few of these and the gray tones look the same.  Tintypes were most popular from about the 1860's to the 1880's. After that, the gelatin emulsion plates started taking over (example: the second photo looks like a gelatin em.)

BTW--one argument for the first photo being a tintype is that I'm almost sure it's reversed, and the cowboy is holding the prop gun (he ain't got a gunbelt or holster that I can see) is actually right-handed.

Here's some tintype info from the net:

The tintype, also known as a ferrotype, is a variation on this, but produced on metallic sheet (not, actually, tin) instead of glass. The plate was coated with collodion and sensitized just before use, as in the wet plate process. It was introduced by Adolphe Alexandre Martin in 1853**, and became instantly popular, particularly in the United States, though it was also widely used by street photographers in Great Britain.

The most common size was about the same as the carte-de-visite, 2 1/4'' x 3 1/2'', but both larger and smaller ferrotypes were made.

Compared with other processes the tintype tones seem uninteresting. They were often made by unskilled photographers, and their quality was very variable. They do have some significance, however, in that they made photography available to working classes, not just to the more well-to-do. Whereas up till then the taking of a portrait had been more of a special "event" from the introduction of tintypes, we see more relaxed, spontaneous poses.

The print would come out laterally reversed (as one sees oneself in a mirror); either people did not worry about this, or just possibly they did not discover it until after the photographer had disappeared!

Being quite rugged, tintypes could be sent by post, and many astute tintypists did quite a trade in America during the Civil War, visiting the encampments. Later, some even had their shop on river-boats.

Tintypes were eventually superseded by gelatin emulsion dry plates in the 1880s, though street photographers in various parts of the world continued with this process until the 1950s; the writer well remembers being photographed by one of these street photographers in Argentina, when he was a boy.

PS: Great Photos, thanks fer postin' them! 

[Delmonico]

The first picture is reversed. look at the buttons on the coat.

[River City John]

The second picture looks too much like 1915- early 1920's to me.

[Delmonico]

The second picture looks too much like 1915- early 1920's to me.

Kind of mu opinion too, got it copied and gonna play with it and see what I can find to help date it..

[Delmonico]

Savvy Jack, can you send me the link where you found them or can you E-Mail me the largest file you have of them.

[Bryan Austin]

The first picture is reversed. look at the buttons on the coat.

I thought it was weird that both guys were lefties!

[Bryan Austin]

http://www.antiquearmsinc.com/images/cowboys-tintype-photo-old-west-smith-wesson-horses/cowboys-tintype-photo-old-west-smith-wesson-horses.jpg


http://www.antiquearmsinc.com/images/cowboys-tintype-photo-old-west-smith-wesson-horses/cowboys-tintype-photo-old-west-smith-wesson-horses-3.jpg

[Forty Rod]

  And the East is definitely showing its influence in the leather bloused riding pants

I have a picture someplace of my dad wearing almost the same thing except for lace up boots, standing by an Apperson Jackrabbit (Not his.  Dad couldn't afford a car in those days), dated 1923.  It was taken in Idaho, probably around Fruitland when Dad was working on the Deal spread there.

[GunClick Rick]

 

['Monterrey' Jack Brass]

J.D. Yellowhammer –

Good catch on what, exactly, is the photograph of the guys on the horses. I'm quite sure it's a Ferrotype too. This is supported by the photos metal substrate and the japanning coming through where the varnish, silver nitrate and collodion coating have been scratched off. As for the shades on the photograph it depended on what the photographer put in his fixer solution as to what shades it could have. Potassium cyanide for more brownish type hues or sodium thiosulphate for more grays and contrast for example (per John Coffer's "Wet-plate Collodion Photography in the Field Workshop Manual"). Though I haven't yet made any pictures with the late Victorian studio camera I adapted for wet plate, I've studied the formulas to get the appearance I want and have decided to go with the grayer, sharper contrast by using the sodium thiosulphate based fixer. I hope to be making pictures soon after I finish my dark box in a couple of weeks. Will be fun to figure all this stuff out, hope it friggin' works.

At any rate, I found an interesting tid bit - and to history types who examine period photographs for details & such this is a sort of 'eureka moment' - regarding what appears to have been a retro phase in 1880s & 90s photography: At least some photographers actually chose the wet plate process over the newer dry plate/emulsion process.

In "The Ferrotype and How To Make It" by Edward Estabrooke, 7th edition 1891 (initial edition published in and copyrighted in 1880 by the E. & H.T. Anthony & Co.) the author bemoans the passing of the collodion wetplate era and even defines the very early era silver plated copper Daguereotype as the pinnacle of the photographer's art, the Ambrotype and Ferrotype being about equal seconds in his opinion. He was not a big fan of dry plate and the book he wrote on wet plate photography with all of its subsequent editions were printed smack-dab in the dry plate process era. Along with a history of photography up to that time and how-to info for running a proper photography studio he also details improvements in some chemicals and solutions that made better wet plate images. It's a great read and a must for the reference/research library. The copy I have is a 2007 reprint of the original 7th edition from Lindsay Publications Inc.

It's generally understood that the wet plate process continued into the dry plate era and, based on this unique period reference, as late as 1891 wet plate was even preferred over the dry plate process by at least some photographers. This fact can put some things in perspective, perhaps including the image posted by Savvy Jack. It could be that the photographer chose to use the wet plate process over the more current dry plate process to make the picture of the gents on horses and was knocking out such images well into what we have come to understand as the dry plate era. The information from "The Ferrotype and How To Make It" in 1891 adds a spin to dating some images to say the least.

Neat stuff.

YMH&OS,

Brass

[Delmonico]

Jack, Solomon Butcher used the wet plate till he stopped in 1917.

One reason could be that folks don't change easily, another could be cost, a third is the photographer has, at least in their mind more control.

I wish a late friend of mine was still alive, his Great-Uncle was the photographer at Fort Robinson and took the photos you've seen of Wounded Knee.  I miss Don, he would have some interesting insights to this, attended a lecture one time he did on "Uncle John" (the last name slips my mind right now). 

Don was also one of the volunteers who helped clean Butchers glass plate negatives before they were scanned, many hours of work that has helped all historian of the Old West.

[J.D. Yellowhammer]

Great info, Brass and Del.  Those Wounded Knee photos are iconic--I've been seeing copies of those since I was a kid. I bet his uncle had some fascinating stories.  I wonder if he wrote about his life at the Fort? 

Brass, can you post a picture of your Victorian camera? I'd love to see it. 

PS: What about the optics?  Is it an original lens or modern? 
As you know, one of the biggest giveaways when people try to recreate 19th century photography is the glass.  Lens technology is so much better now, it really dates photos.  Issues with sharpness or lack thereof, depth of field, distortion, etc. are hard to get with modern glass  (I don't know whether you're trying to duplicate the Victorian look or use the old process as a modern tool).

['Monterrey' Jack Brass]

J.D.

My intent with the camera is to recreate the images as closely as I can with period photographic chemicals/formulas as well as proper equipment. We'll see if I can get my set up to work - wish me luck. This weekend I'm picking up an 1880s era trunk that I'll convert into a dark box. Fear not, will not be cutting holes in it to put amber glass windows on the sides or such. I'll be following the concept of the 1875 Frank Robbins patent (no. 164,765) where a similar trunk was made specifically to be used as a portable dark room. Was different than a normal trunk by how tall the lid section was, and by the use of amber curtains strung up on struts and an over-head bar. These amber curtains will let enough filtered light in the box where I'll be working the plates to prevent the need to install amber or red glass windows into the body of the trunk. Nifty methinks.

The camera shown below could be considered as close to a late Victorian 'generic' studio camera as it gets since this design was very common. It's an Ansco Company studio camera and is sitting on a Century 3A model adjustable studio stand, both were fun restoration projects. This camera type was sold by E. & H. T. Anthony & Co as the Climax studio and there were some other names for basically the same camera. Unfortunately it had no lens or lens board when I got it so I had to find lenses and make the lens boards. It was made as a dry plate camera but at some point in time was altered to an early film camera. It's come full circle as it's now adapted to be a wet plate camera. I'm completing modifications on a period tripod so I can use the Ansco in the field though I have plans to build a smaller camera for hauling about too, I'd like to go with bellows but might make a sliding box type. Jury is still out on that. I also have a 1900 era Victo English made camera (not pictured below) with an integral wooden collapsible tripod that will be easy to adapt to wet plate as the back of the camera is conducive to it without altering the woodwork or drilling any holes. The replacement bellows are cut out and ready to be installed. For the price I couldn't pass it up and will use it in some capacity.

I'll only use lenses from the era on the Ansco and the camera yet to be built as I want the period lens distortions/imperfections if at all possible though these manifest themselves mostly around the edge of the projected image, outside of what is captured anyway. My main lens, the big monster mounted to the camera pictured below, is French made and marked "A. T. Thompson & Co, Importers, Boston". It's from the late 1880s/early 1890s based on the fact I took it off of a magic lantern dated 1891. This is a tangent drive type of the Petzval lens configuration from what I can tell. It throws an excellent image on the ground glass view pane and will work well as a landscape lens which is just what I want. Of the three lenses pictured below the middle brass tube is going to be an interesting project to make functional as the main outside lens is missing from the original assembly. Will be a hoot to get operational and doing what it takes to make it work right.


Front view of Ansco studio camera


Rear view of Ansco studio camera showing ground glass view pane


Misc lenses mounted on lens boards to fit the Ansco studio camera


Hope this post wasn't too long, could go on some more but I think this answers the mail on your camera question.

Brass

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Hi Monterrey Jack Brass,

I wish you were about when we were trying to shoot some pics at a local watering place in Old Sacramento ... the bar and barback are solid mahogany and saved from demolition when a 150 year old saloon in Leadville Colorado was torn down.

The closest we could come to period was that we found a friend who had sepia tone as an option on her digital camera. So it came out a bit too crisp, and I came out a bit too clean looking to be really looking as 'old west'.

But if you are down south of the Barbary Coast and ever come up to the flatlands, I would love to do this again ... I even know some reenactors and SASS people that might be interested.....

If this seems interesting, my email is on my profile ....

['Monterrey' Jack Brass]

W. W. Ellis - Thanks for the offer but I have no plans to make images commercially or on any sort of large scale. There are some darned good wet plate photography artists out there who do this for a living and are true professionals. So I'll leave the photography trade to them and remain a happy amature with only a peripheral hobbyist's interest in it. As for a professional tintyper in your area contact Wayne Pierce out of el Cajon, California. He might be able to assist you in your tintype needs. His web site is: http://www.companyphotographer.com/index.html. From what I've heard through the tintyper community he's pretty well known and has a nice set up.

Though I have no interest in setting up at shoots/re-enactments to make tintypes this photography project truly has been a interesting thing to work on, and this before I've even made any pictures. I'll get all the pieces together and fire up the rig in a few weeks to actualy try making some images and I'd be surpised if any come out right at first. This week-end I'll work on my dark box, finish up a few small remaining repairs on the bellows, and mix the collodion, developer, and fixer solutions. It's nice to be on the downward slope of getting things together and ready for this project.

So if you're keen to personally experience a truly unique aspect of the Victorian era I recommend you find or make a proper camera, get all the right stuff, and go through all the wickets and do such a project. Though this project requires a lot of time (and h'aint exactly cheap...!) I guarantee it's not boring in the least. And believe me there is quite a lot you'd learn and enjoy about the process before even getting close to making a photograph. It is a rewarding experience for sure.

Brass

[J.D. Yellowhammer]

Brass,
Thanks very much for the illustrations and detailed info. Fascinating!    I hope you'll post the results here.  Those old cameras were pieces of art, not like the utilitarian, mass produced, soulless boxes that replaced them.

W.W. Ellis: great location and good start to capturing the 19th century!

I dabble in retro styles of photography, however, my images are of later periods and they aren't meant to be exact reproductions.  My effects are accomplished in photoshop with layers, desaturation, tone manipulation and texture blending.  For instance, a simulated hand tint:



And this is one of my faves, my wife, Russian Annie, in an actual 1920's dress:

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Monterrey Jack,

Unfortunately, your first pic did not come out on my computer ...

The second pic (of your wife) did come out ... she is the perfect model for the long 'Maxfield Parish' look that was needed to wear the styles of that day....

No intent at commercialism was meant ... just thought that if ever you were in the area and wanted to do some pictorials, there would not be a want of people or backdrops .... something for you to play with with your new camera ...