Saga

[Noz]

Here we begin the saga of "he who can't leave well enough alone" known hereafter as Noz..
You see Noz had always (since starting reloading many years ago) wanted a rotary tumbler.  Recently one came available on e-bay and since there were no creditors currently knocking on the door, he bought it. It was used and somewhat incomplete but he soon had it running. Not wanting to do anything except the very best he ordered a quantity of DDs ceramic media and cleaning solution.  What would be the use of a rotary tumbler if you were just going to use lizard liter?
All things came together with the tumbler (now complete), cleaner, ceramic media and 75 pieces of really grungy 44-40 brass that had been exposed to 2.2 cc of real black behind a Mav Dutchman Big Lube bullet.
The tumbler was loaded and started and he hovered over it like a momma hen.
Three hours later and he opened it to take out his now gleaming brass to discover that not only were they not clean, they looked worse than when he started.  What had gone wrong?
E-mail to DD. He asked if Noz had done the media break in?
Well no, he was in a hurry.
Media break in takes place (8 hours of running the media without brass but with a full load of cleaner).
Noz opened the tumbler to find a nasty dirty mess of ceramic media with a black scum all over it.  Well, maybe that's what it's supposed to look like.
Same brass, proper amount of media, proper amount of cleaner and away we go again.
Three hours later he opens the tumbler with great expectations to find his brass is approaching the look that only can be achieved by the makers of US Military .308 brass, you know with the sick green tint.  The media is black as is the cleaner.  Something new. 100% of the brass has media stuck tight inside and filled up to the mouth of the brass.
E-mail to DD.
DD offers to exchange the media for some that he knows is working, but Noz decline thinking that again he had screwed up and had spent a lot of money for a system that would never work for him. Maybe he could use the tumbler to smooth rocks for some jewelry.
Wait a minute. A little light went on. Used tumbler, smooth rocks!  What do they use for tumbling media?
Same brass, clean media, fresh cleaner, tumbler started again. He lets it run for about 4 hours and opens to black media and black cleaner. (brass looks the same).  This time as he pours out the cleaner he captured some in a paper towel and discovers that the cleaner liquid is filled with small hard grains of some sort of hard grit.  Valve grinding compound?
E-mail to DD.  DD offered to replace the cleaner liquid he had used in this whole process. Noz refused because he didn't feel that any part of the problem was DDs fault.
All of the media back in the tumbler. Tumbler filled with cleaning liquid. Tumbler started and allowed to run for 24 hours.  Noz opened the tumbler and poured out more dark nasty liquid. He rinsed the media, put it back in the tumbler with a fresh charge of cleaner and started again.
24 hours later he opened the tumbler to see light grey liquid and fairly clean media.
Now he has the original grungy looking brass plus about 100 rounds that have had no treatment at all.
In they go with proper amount of media and cleaner.  Four hours later he opened the tumbler to find 150 rounds of bright shiny clean brass.
Obviously the previous owner had run something in the tumbler that did not agree with ceramic media and DD's cleaner. Equally obvious was that when used in a clean tumbler DD's system works like a charm.  Also it is likely that the added friction between the tumbling media, the grinding compound and the brass is what cause the media to stick so tightly in the brass because with the clean tumbler there is no sticking.
All is well in the land of Noz

Over on the Firing Line Forum is a thread about using your rotary tumbler to help reduce the size of the sprue on your round balls by simply tumbling them and allowing them to beat against each other and in the process beat the sprue down somewhat.
What a great idea.
So Noz puts about 10 lbs of round balls in the tumbler to make gloriously rounded round balls to feed his 1860 Armys.
Four hours later he opens the tumbler to find 10 lbs of nicely rounded round balls with the sprues almost gone, and
The entire inside of the tumbler is coated with a thick layer of sticky gritty lead residue that will not come out with simple washing.
So he loads the tumbler with fresh media, a charge of fresh cleaner and starts the whole process over again.
Some people shouldn't be let out by themselves.

[Paladin UK]

See!! I aint the only one!!
Paladin (Whats been told he shouldnt be left alone fer too long neither!!) UK

[Deadeye Dick]

NOZ,
Glad to see someone else has my luck. I got a chuckle out of your misfortune, but it was not at you but I understand how you feel.
Just think you have educated all of the uninformed like me to do the proper breakin if'n I ever break loose with the coins for a rotary tumbler.
Thanks for sharing your education and experience with us.
Also it was nice to hear that DD was willing to help you out. What a pard.



Deadeye Dick

[Dick Dastardly]

An interesting part of my "business" is customer service.  Every now and then I'm able to help somebody.  Thanks Noz.  You made my day.  In real live, success is never guaranteed.  A good outcome frequently depends on attention to detail, listening, giving the best no BS information you have and admitting when you're stumped.

FWIW, here's one that happened to me just recently.  I bought a bag of brass from a pard at a shoot.  Fair price.  Mixed brands.  Had been used with smokeyless heathen powder only.  I tumbled it just like I do my bp brass.  What a mess.  I had to run it twice.  It's still not as pretty as my bp brass.  Could there be junk in heathen powder that's harder to clean up than there is in bp brass?  Seems to me like there is. . .

Could be that Noz got hold of a drum that had run heathen brass with exhausted corncob media and the owner couldn't get it clean again, so he sold it.  Could be that it took the CP media to get the job done.  Could be. . .

Glad to learn that your DD CP media is working as advertised.  Noz, next time you order anything from Big Lube® LLC, use the note section on the order page to request a free bottle of CP mix concentrate.  Sounds like you used up a bunch of it getting the job done.

DD-DLoS

[Frenchie]

About tumbling the round balls, remember this classic:

Vin: 'It's like this fella I knew back in El Paso. One day, he took off all his clothes and jumped in a mess o' cactus. I asked him that same question, "Why?"'
Calvera: 'And?'
Vin: 'He said, "It seemed to be a good idea at the time."'

Some people shouldn't be let out by themselves.

LOL!   I have a new Franklin Arsenal vibrating cleaner and I'm learning a few new things myself; for example, it is possible to add too much liquid brass cleaner to the media. 

[Tequila Jim]

Ahhh, if you had of just called me Frenchie I would have told about that very thing, Rrgards, TJ

[Jefro]

.
Some people shouldn't be let out by themselves.

Great story Noz, haven't heard one that good in a long time.

Jefro

[Fairshake]

Noz, I had the very same problem with the same material. I soak my cases in a mix of Pine-Sol , Dawn with OXY and lemon juice. I then rinse the cases and put them in the mdl B. To my suprise when I opened the tumbler; What a mess!! Everything was a cruddy looking grey with a greasey film. I dumped and refilled and ran again, same results. I then soaked the ceramic media in mineral spirits and cleaned the rubber inside the drum with it. The shop towels were black and so was the soaking mineral spirits. I filled the tumbler with fresh media(I have two batches) and used some Dawn with Oxy this time. Well my brass came out looking like the day they were made. What happened ,I have no idea to this day. That happened in DEC of 08 . Well several months later, in July of 09 and it has happened again. No Clue, Repeated what I did last time and we are good again. Very confusing  Later David

[Noz]

Wow, David. I'm glad I'm not the only one.

DD, thanks for the offer of free cleaner but all the fault was mine and the previous owner.
Since I'm a printer I have access to roller cleaner. I might just run a batch of that and see what happens.

[john boy]

Gents, burnishing solution for brass is acidic.  And acid will dissolve rubber using it in a mix of solution and the media.  The media will be cutting off small rubber particles that are more easy to be dissolved by the solution.

And when a specific burnishing solution is used that was developed for brass cleaning, there has to be a adverse chemical reaction that creates a 'lead grunge' from rolling the balls

As for what is the proper loading mix of burnishing solution and media to the amount of brass cases ... here's a read from Kramer Industries ... http://www.kramerindustriesonline.com/finishing-guides/estimating-machine-capacity.htm

Dick will probably be able to add more information from the company he buys his cleaning components from 

Might add from Kramer's Sales Manager... their brass burnishing solution does not have to be changed when it gets black.  It will continue to properly clean the brass

OK, enough of the Internet ... Time for Lunch.  Catch up again with the After Dinner Crowd! 

[Mako]

Gents, burnishing solution for brass is acidic.  And acid will dissolve rubber using it in a mix of solution and the media.  The media will be cutting off small rubber particles that are more easy to be dissolved by the solution.

And when a specific burnishing solution is used that was developed for brass cleaning, there has to be a adverse chemical reaction that creates a 'lead grunge' from rolling the balls

As for what is the proper loading mix of burnishing solution and media to the amount of brass cases ... here's a read from Kramer Industries ... http://www.kramerindustriesonline.com/finishing-guides/estimating-machine-capacity.htm

Dick will probably be able to add more information from the company he buys his cleaning components from 

Might add from Kramer's Sales Manager... their brass burnishing solution does not have to be changed when it gets black.  It will continue to properly clean the brass

OK, enough of the Internet ... Time for Lunch.  Catch up again with the After Dinner Crowd! 

John Boy,
I hate to disagree with you but acid doesn't attack Rubber, alkaline materials and solvents do.  Alkaline materials are exactly the opposite of Acids... Just what kind of "acid" are you talking about?

The majority of drums used in rotary tumblers are either Styrene Butadiene or Neoprene.  Neoprene is pretty impervious but some lower quality Styrene Butadiene barrels will break down with the following:
1. Ammonia
2. High alkaline solutions (such as borax)
3. Solvent based solutions (such as acetone, MEK, etc.)
4. Bleach
5. Mild chemicals in high concentration (such as soaps)

The following is how to clean a contaminated drum:
You need something ACIDIC to strip the goo from the drum and media (NOTE YOU NEED AN ACID SOLUTION...).  Vinegar has a pH of 2.4 and works very well. CLR and LimeAway have a pH of 1-1.5 and work very well. Run your tumbler in 20 minute cycles with your cleaner and your media, rinsing well between each cycle until your media is clean.

Once your drum and media is clean, run only very mild soap and water in the tumbler to avoid having this problem again. The solutions, or powders you get from Dick or the manufacturers make low pH solutions. A pH neutral or slightly alkaline soap (note I said a VERY MILD ALKALINE SOAP) would be best, such as castile or ivory soap. Almost all soaps and detergents are alkaline so be very careful, there are acidic detergents but they are poor at removing oils. Be sure to clean your items well before tumbling so you do not introduce foreign substances into the barrel that might induce the contamination.

This low pH cleaning method does not always work because some rubber barrels were made with unstable rubber or have been so damaged that they are beyond repair. Technically there is no way to repair SBR after it has begun to deteriorate, it will always be rough and will lose material as it is being used but it should still give you many years of service. This is why barrel break in that Dick and Noz have spoken of is SO IMPORTANT.  It's not just a nice idea it needs to be done to get the best out of it.

So remember, what has not worked as a tumbling additive is anything that is highly alkaline (pH over 8.5) because alkaline substances cause the breakdown of the rubber. High alkaline substances are ammonia, orange cleaners, simple green, and 20 Mule Team Borax to name a few.

Regards,
Mako

[Mako]

Noz, I had the very same problem with the same material. I soak my cases in a mix of Pine-Sol , Dawn with OXY and lemon juice. I then rinse the cases and put them in the mdl B. To my suprise when I opened the tumbler; What a mess!! Everything was a cruddy looking grey with a greasey film. I dumped and refilled and ran again, same results. I then soaked the ceramic media in mineral spirits and cleaned the rubber inside the drum with it. The shop towels were black and so was the soaking mineral spirits. I filled the tumbler with fresh media(I have two batches) and used some Dawn with Oxy this time. Well my brass came out looking like the day they were made. What happened ,I have no idea to this day. That happened in DEC of 08 . Well several months later, in July of 09 and it has happened again. No Clue, Repeated what I did last time and we are good again. Very confusing  Later David

Fairshake,
What you did was introduce a high pH solution to your drum. Oxyclean has a pH of 12.4, I believe  Dawn has a pH of over 20.  The buffered hand soaps have a more neutral pH.  The two together just made it highly alkaline.

What you did was coat the drum with mineral spirits which gave it some protection, once the film is stripped you are attacking the walls again with the high pH solution.  Try a mild soap like Ivory (pH 9.5), or get a buffered cleaner like Dick sells.

If you wanted to measure your own you can add a mild acid and test with strips, but then there is a fine line between what will act as a surfactant and what is not any better than plain water...
Regards,
Mako

[Dick Dastardly]

To all,

I purchase the CP media from a company right here in Sun Prairie, WI.  I spent some quality time with their TSR and did my homework before putting the DD CP  brass cleaning kits on the market.  The solution concentrate is made for metal parts cleaning, including brass.  It is made to work in rubber lined tumblers and shakers that are designed to run wet loads.  The solution in the kits won't attack the rubber.  The factory lab runs rubber lined shakers and tumblers.  They KNOW what works and what does not work.  They manufacture many TONS of media and sell all over the planet.  In this very competitive market there is no room for BS.

All that said, there IS a break in run of about Eight hours that conditions both the tumbler and the media.  As issued, the media is quite sharp and can erode soft brass.  I've not had a problem with it, but I follow the manufacturers instructions.

When I asked what substitute could be used for the concentrate, I was told that Ivory Soap Flakes will work.  The CP media won't work as fast, but good results can be had by tumbling longer.  For best results, use the DD CP tumbling solution concentrate.  When re-ordering I recommend buying at leas Two bottles.  The shipping is the same for Two as it is for One.

I have found that some batches of brass that had been shot with smokeless powders is more difficult to clean than brass that's been shot with black powder.  Substitute/replica powders don't leave the same easy to clean residue as genuine black powder on the brass.  Those clean much like smokeless powder brass.  The absolute easiest brass to clean is the Cowboy 45 Special brass I bought from Adirondack Jack.  I've never used anything but genuine black powder in it.  My C45Spl brass always cleans up sparkling bright and clean outside and in.

Hope this helps.

DD-DLoS

[john boy]

Gent's, I'll stand stand by acids dissolve rubber, but I should have further stated not all acids will.  Acetic acid is one that does. Sorry for the broad definition, gents. 

Having worked as a lab technician back in my younger days, I do know the pH scale runs from 0 (acidic side) to 14 (alkaline side) with pH 7 being neutral.  So I have to ask Mako, how can it be or was this a typo error? ...

Dawn has a pH of over 20

Don't have a set of litmus papers or pH meter, so I can't provide the correct answer

Thanks also for the writeup how to clean the goo.  Good information

Dick, I see that Washington Mills Ceramics Corporation in Sun Prairie, WI does not provide any tumbler or vibratory loading information for cleaning on their website.  Such as percent of load in a tumbler or vibrator to provide correct cleaning action - using the correct amount of burnishing solution and media in proportion to the percent of load.  Any chance you contacting them for this type of information so the proper charges can be used to provide the best efficiency cleaning cases?  Their online technical information is only MSDS product sheets
http://www.washingtonmillsceramics.com/mass-finishing-media/aboutus.php

[Mako]

John Boy,
Haaaaaaa, you are so correct!   I don't know if there is anything on earth that could contain something as caustic as somethong with a pH of 20!!!  My bad, I originally had typed 9.0-9.2, then decided to change it to "over 9.0."  For some reason the window for typing on this forum doesn't work correctly for me anymore it makes it hard to type.  That info ie from the MSDS for Dawn it is for the original formula.

What most people don't realize is that the pH scale is also logarithmic and as you pointed out the pH scale ranges from 0 to 14. A pH of 7 is neutral, a pH less than 7 is acidic, a pH greater than 7 is basic.  Each whole pH value below 7 is ten times more acidic than the next higher value. For example, pH 4 is ten times more acidic than pH 5 and 100 times (10 times 10) more acidic than pH 6. The same holds true for pH values above 7, each of which is ten times more alkaline than the next lower whole value. For example, pH 10 is ten times more alkaline than pH 9 and 100 times more alkaline than pH 8.

Back to the Acetic Acid...You are sort of correct about acetic acid John Boy but only in VERY HIGH concentrations.  100% yes, 70% yes, drop to 30 % and it can be used, drop to 5-18% which is what the vinegars we would have access to are, and it's a whole different story.  White vinegar you get in the grocery store is only 5%.

I have attached a link to a table to show you the chemical resistance of different rubbers.  SBR is the second column and Neoprene is column 6.  Note how Acetic Acid at 30% has a minor effect on Styrene Butadiene and none on Neoprene, which is exactly what I said about Neoprene being pretty much impervious to any chemical any of us would add.  Now if you want to go to a chemical supply company buy some 70-100% concentration Acetic Acid to prove your point, then knock yourself out , but anyone on this forum won't ever be using anything stronger than pickling vinegar (Acetic Acid) which is never more than 18%.

http://www.customadvanced.com/chemical_resistance_chart.html

Regards,
Mako

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy JB,

The factory does not provide ratios.  I  had to work them out by trial and error.  Then, I put them on my instruction sheet that ships with my DD brass cleaning kits.  So, here's what works best for me and what I'm advising.

1 part brass by volume.  I use a 1 Liter measure.
1.2 parts CP media
1.3 parts tumbling solution. Use Two capfuls per gallon concentrate with water to make working solution.  An 8 ounce bottle of concentrate mixes up 16 gallons of working solution.  The tumbling solution is a one shot and throw it away situation.  The CP media lasts virtually forever.  Don't loose it down the drain cuz your sewer snake may not get it out and you will have to spend money on a plumber.

In other words, a bit more volume of cp media than brass and a bit more than that of solution.  As explained to me by the late great El Paso Pete aka Larry Johnson, the solution does much of the same work as water does on a wet stone.  It keeps the stone clean.  The surfactant helps to disperse any organics, but the water does the work.  Too much soap makes a mess.  No soap leaves a greasy film on the brass.  The right amount turns out clean shiny brighter than new brass.

How's that?

DD-DLoS

[Paladin UK]

Jeeeeeeeesus this threads got reeeeeeeeeeel heavy 
Paladin ( ) UK

[Noz]

's OK. Palladin.

When the smart ones get done, we'll pick up the usable pieces and go on.

Ya got to remember that they do the thinking so we can say it's simple.

[john boy]

Guys - I'll make it simple   

How's that?

Ya did good Dick.  Much Thanks for the boyzs in the bleachers using corn or walnut

How's that guys?

[john boy]

Thanks Mako - neat chart.  I've book marked this one