Woven Bullet Loops

[Flinch Morningwood]

How do you folks cut the slot for woven bullet loops? 

The quote from Chuck burrows bellow show a great picture I am trying to emulate (a polite word for "copy")...It looks like these were done by an oblong lunch if I am not mistaken...which I frequently am...

Thanks Doc and all..............

The loops are what I call semi-woven - the space in between the loops is 1/2 - 5/8" an the space between twin slots for the loops is 3/8 - 1/2" depending on caliber. The loops go only through the front of the 3/4 oz money belt leather I use - here's a closeup:


see page 176 of Packing Iron for an original done this way.

the advantage is for big guys (the average belt I sell is 42-44") is it only takes about 25 loops to fill in between the billets rather than the 40+ it takes with sewn or full woven loops. One can still look "right" without the extra, and for CAS purposes unneccesary weight.

BTW - on this one I used 1/4" spots between the loops rather than rivets.

[cowboy316]

Little Al
you are corrrect bout using and oblong punch but if you do have one use the appreate round drive punch and punch holes at both ends of where you want your slot then cut out the rest with an exto knife
Cowboy316

[DarbyFett]

Little Al
you are corrrect bout using and oblong punch but if you do have one use the appreate round drive punch and punch holes at both ends of where you want your slot then cut out the rest with an exto knife
Cowboy316

Thats what I do.

[Dave Cole]

I'll third tha as I do the same thing.Dave

[ChuckBurrows]

Little Al on thos one you're not really copying me since I copied from the originals....

Another alternative to a bag (aka oblong) punch is to use a round drive punch for the two ends and then use a wood chisel of the right width to chop out the center - it's what I do for when I don't have the right size bag punch or want a narrower slot than what the bag punch give, especially in the larger sizes. The wood chisels are relatively inexpensive Stanley's or Craftsman's: I use a 5/8" for 3/4" slots, 7/8" for 1" slots, and 1 3/8" for 1 1/2" slots which are 99% of what I cut.

For the semi-woven loops I use one of those 1" or 3/4" el cheapo aluminum bag punches from Tandy which I've had for about 30 years since it makes a narrower slot than the higher quality steel ones I have - the aluminum ones from Hidecrafter are supposed to be of a better quality......for full woven loops I use my steel ones since a wider slot is desirable due to running the loop through the same hole twice.

BTW - to size my semi-woven loops I use pieces of 3/8" dowel for 38 caliber and 7/16" for 45 caliber since the loops don't pull up as snug as when building the full woven ones. This makes the semi-woven loops nice and snug, but not too tight.

[Slowhand Bob]

Hidecrafters used to carry a cheap looking punch made from tubular steel by Rampart.  It was my favorite for cartridge loops and the price was right BUT they are not as heavy duty as forged steel for general use.  Tandy came out with a cheap copy of this Rampart and do no not let the resemblance fool you as the Rampart is much much better while the Tandy version is virtually useless.  I am not sure if Hidecrafters or Rampart are still in business but a search would surely help in finding out.

A related question, when lining belts that utilize woven loops, do you try to hide the bulge on the back?  I have not done this in the past but was recently shown a belt that had the back of the loops completely hidden under the liner.  Though the belt was an extremely expensive model put out by a top maker, I am sure the loop material was not inset into the belt back.  This would really be to time consuming for production work.   My thought is that the maker used a center ply with the same thickness as the loop material and slotted out the loop area.  It made for an attractive and professional looking back to the belt that was smooth and flat, like a 'sewn loop' version.  I would not normally use this technique but did think some might consider the possibility, any thoughts or ideas?     

[Freedom]

Little Al on thos one you're not really copying me since I copied from the originals....

I have a ?? Chuck.... so do the spots go threw the loop leather to hold them in place or are they put in the belt before the loops are formed?
Thanks Freeedom

[Flinch Morningwood]

Thanks for the input everyone!  Especially the section about using chisels and the correct dowel size for making the loops...I am assuming that you make each one individually, pulling the slack out around the dowel and then dropping in the two spots to hold the loop in place.

SLOWHAND - I personnaly am going to be doing a money belt which, by design, has the folded back covering the loops...I am still trying to decide if I am going rough out, smooth out or a version that is sewn all the way around with the front smooth and the back rough (essentially a lined money belt).

Given the width (2.5") and the fact I have no hips, I would like the belt to stay in place...

[ChuckBurrows]

I have a ?? Chuck.... so do the spots go threw the loop leather to hold them in place or are they put in the belt before the loops are formed? Thanks Freeedom

They go through both pieces I use a spot setter and do them as I go along - I recommend the setters from Standard Rivet Co.

while the Tandy version is virtually useless

Maybe the new ones but the three I have and use frequently are still doing the job....     

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

They go through both pieces I use a spot setter and do them as I go along - I recommend the setters from Standard Rivet Co.
Maybe the new ones but the three I have and use frequently are still doing the job....     

   Little All, I agree with Chuck on the spot setters from Standard Rivet Co., I took his advice on these and haven't regretted it a bit, they work great and make the job of putting in spots fun and easy.


                                    tEN wOLVES 

[Freedom]

My biggest problem with the spots in light leather is that the spots often act like little hole punches and punch right through.

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

My biggest problem with the spots in light leather is that the spots often act like little hole punches and punch right through.

      There supposed to go all the way through, if they don't you need longer tines,you just need enough tines showing that you can turn them over, if the leather is too thick, they sell barbed spots, where you don't have turn them over, you just need the right length, and then you just pound them in, and there won't be anything showing on the back side, you can get these and others from Standard Rivet Co. when you have to turn the tines over, I like to turn them inward, then you tap them down with flat round punch, this will embed them into the leather, when you do the punching, make sure you have the finished side of the spot, on a poundo mat or some leather scrap, or you can dent the spot.

                                              Regards

                                          tEN wOLVES 

[Freedom]

My biggest problem with the spots in light leather is that the spots often act like little hole punches and punch right through.

What I ment be this is...the spots heads themselves cut through the leather....a 1/4 inch spot makes a nice clean 1/4 in hole in the leather and the spots falls right through...

[Slowhand Bob]

Freedom, my daddy always said I tried to solve to many problems with a bigger hammer and this may be your problem.  Sometimes a bit of finesse will solve this type problem.  I actually have several of the itty bitty wooden mallets that Tandy included in some of their classroom kits just for these finesse situations.  You would be amazed at the number of times I have turned a seeder into a hole punch and I AM A SLOW LEARNER.

Darn Chuck, I threw a hand full of the Tandy copies of the Rampart punches back somewhere right after they came out.  Best I remember I thought they had to much roll over on the outer cutting edge and would not sharpen well but perhaps I should find them again and check deeper into my first opinion.  I have and use several of the Craft brand end punch styles and find them to be ok after an initial sharpening but consider the CSO brand to be a big step up and use the belt punches for most of my smaller hole needs.  The wild card here is the cheap 'belt' hole punches coming out of China and they arrive pretty sharp to boot.   

I did do a search for Hide Crafters last night and was pleasantly surprised to find that they are still doing computer mail order business but saw no place to order a catalog so I am not real sure how well they are faring there??  They did still have the Rampart bag punches and their excellent selection of educational material, which I hope never gets lost to the public.  Remember Jim Simmons, his patterns were still there also.  I have not seen him on any forum for a long time now and lost all links I had to his business, anybody know anything there?

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

What I ment be this is...the spots heads themselves cut through the leather....a 1/4 inch spot makes a nice clean 1/4 in hole in the leather and the spots falls right through...

Freedom, Slowhand is right, if you're hitting the spots so hard that you are driving them right through the leather, there lies your problem, if you don't have a spot setter, you can use a very narrow exacto blade, and  after using your wing dividers to mark the distance between the tines, then use this to mark where you want to put the spots, after marking, use the exacto knife to cut a small slit in your markings, then you just have to push the spots through your leather, and turn your tines inward, and tap them down,( don't pound them down ) and use leather or the poundo mat under the finished side when you do it, it's not hard , it just takes a little finessing, take your time and you might learn to enjoy it. I find investing in the setting tools from Standard Rivet Co. worth the investment, at least if you plan on doing more of this in the future. One other thing how thin of leather are you trying to put the spots on ?

                                                              Good Luck

                                                              Regards

                                                           tEN wOLVES   

[Dalton Masterson]

Hey Slowhand, I called Hidecrafters last night, and he said as soon as they get their new website  figured out, they will put out a new catalog. The online ordering isnt ready yet, according to the guy on the phone.

As for the spots, you can also use a slit punch to make the holes. It works very well for me.

DM

[Slowhand Bob]

Thanks Dalton, I was never a big buyer through Hide Crafters but always liked their tool selection and considered them unequaled in their selection of leather craft teaching materials.

Ten Wolves, I usually set the spots on a Heritage Foot Press and really like it.  Weaver recently came out with an automatic spot feed system for use on this press and Ill bet it really would speed things up but it is pricey.   

I am seriously thinking I may try one of the belts with woven loops and the third layer as mentioned above.  Thats after I get a belt and mag pouches made to go with the new, and yet unfinished, lined WB holster.

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

  Bob that press sounds like it would be way out of my range, but I've seen them work, and they make short work of installing spots, and the device didn't seem to be that big either, it kind of spit the spots out like an old riveting machine, you're lucky to have one, I can't imagine how much better the Weaver model might be.


                                                Regards

                                          tEN wOLVES