Primers backing out of .44-40 shells

Started by J.D. Yellowhammer, August 08, 2009, 04:40:06 PM

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Mako

#100
September 29, 2009, 05:21:49 PM
JD,
Any update for us?

~Mako
A brace of 1860s, a Yellowboy Saddle Rifle and a '78 Pattern Colt Scattergun
MCA, MCIA, MOAA, MCL, SMAS, ASME, SAME, BMES

Mako

#101
October 14, 2009, 08:32:51 PM
JD,
Just wanted to make sure you hadn't forgotten us.  What was the verdict?  What did USFA finally say and what did you measure once they were returned?

Regards,
Mako
A brace of 1860s, a Yellowboy Saddle Rifle and a '78 Pattern Colt Scattergun
MCA, MCIA, MOAA, MCL, SMAS, ASME, SAME, BMES

J.D. Yellowhammer

#102
October 15, 2009, 07:38:29 AM
They're still at USFA.....   
Lunarian, n.  An inhabitant of the moon, as distinguished from Lunatic, one whom the moon inhabits. (Ambrose Bierce).  Which one are you?

Mako

#103
October 15, 2009, 10:54:25 PM
JD,
Sorry to hear that, I hope you get them back soon.

Regards,
Mako
A brace of 1860s, a Yellowboy Saddle Rifle and a '78 Pattern Colt Scattergun
MCA, MCIA, MOAA, MCL, SMAS, ASME, SAME, BMES

Mako

#104
November 17, 2009, 08:30:18 PM
JD,
Any news for us yet?  I'm hoping you got your pistols back by now.

Regards,
Mako
A brace of 1860s, a Yellowboy Saddle Rifle and a '78 Pattern Colt Scattergun
MCA, MCIA, MOAA, MCL, SMAS, ASME, SAME, BMES

J.D. Yellowhammer

#105
November 22, 2009, 06:00:39 AM
On Nov. 2, USFA sent me this in response to an email:

The head space is to be decreased by taking a few thousandths off the rachet.  This will of course increase the barrel/cylinder gap.  New barrels will be fitted.

Tomorrow it will be two months and still waiting....
Lunarian, n.  An inhabitant of the moon, as distinguished from Lunatic, one whom the moon inhabits. (Ambrose Bierce).  Which one are you?

Leo Tanner

#106
November 22, 2009, 02:00:01 PM
Glad to see they're right on top of things out there. ::)
"When you have to shoot, shoot.  Don't talk."
     Tuco--The Good the Bad and the Ugly

"First comes smiles, then lies.  Last is gunfire."
     Roland Deschain

"Every man steps in the manure now an again, trick is not ta stick yer foot in yer mouth afterward"

religio SENIOR est exordium of scientia : tamen fossor contemno sapientia quod instruction.

Delmonico

#107
November 22, 2009, 02:54:16 PM
And I have a dollar that says when they are back and have been tested my good friend JD will tell us all about it. ;)



Mongrel Historian


Always get the water for the coffee upstream from the herd.

Ab Ovo Usque ad Mala

The time has passed so quick, the years all run together now.

J.D. Yellowhammer

#108
December 20, 2009, 05:01:10 AM
Time to update this thread:

I actually got a phone call from USFA a couple of days ago(!).  The smith who's working on my guns apologized for taking so long, said he was in a head-on collision 4 months ago and is only now getting back to work.  Which would explain a lot about the time taken to repair our guns. But as my wife pointed out: "why didn't they tell you that 3 or 4  months ago?"

I reckon most of you .44WCF owners/shooters know about the issues concerning bore/cylinder/chamber/throat diameter differences and problems.  (the dimensions vary wildly depending upon who made it and when).

Unfortunately, it seems that .44-40 brass has a pretty wide range of rim thicknesses, too, according to the smith at USFA.  My starline shells are on the thin side, and the guns headspace at .011 or .012, which is out of spec. But WW brass with a couple of thousandths thicker rims headspaces correctly....  :o ??? :P

The smith called an expert on black powder (a gun writer with decades of experience) and he suggested that I should open the primer flash hole.  Which was an early suggestion in this thread.  And which would cause some headaches 'cause I load both smokeless (sorry  :-[) and black powder, and the altered brass would only be good fer b.p.

The USFA smith is going to play around with a magnum recoil shield and firing pin.  Hopefully I'll get the guns back before 2010.  Then I'll update this thread with a range report.
Lunarian, n.  An inhabitant of the moon, as distinguished from Lunatic, one whom the moon inhabits. (Ambrose Bierce).  Which one are you?

Leo Tanner

#109
December 20, 2009, 12:43:20 PM
No one at USAF told you why yer guns weren't bein worked on?  You could have sent the guy some flowers in the hospital er somethin.
"When you have to shoot, shoot.  Don't talk."
     Tuco--The Good the Bad and the Ugly

"First comes smiles, then lies.  Last is gunfire."
     Roland Deschain

"Every man steps in the manure now an again, trick is not ta stick yer foot in yer mouth afterward"

religio SENIOR est exordium of scientia : tamen fossor contemno sapientia quod instruction.

J.D. Yellowhammer

#110
December 20, 2009, 02:38:18 PM
Quote from: Leo Tanner on December 20, 2009, 12:43:20 PM
No one at USAF told you why yer guns weren't bein worked on?  You could have sent the guy some flowers in the hospital er somethin.

Nope, they never told me. They had a lot of opportunities--I talked to them a couple of times on the phone, sent emails, and left messages on voicemail. 

It's also kinda strange that they didn't have anyone else who could work on the guns.  Specially since somebody in the USFA CSS forum had his gun worked on and returned a couple of weeks ago....
Lunarian, n.  An inhabitant of the moon, as distinguished from Lunatic, one whom the moon inhabits. (Ambrose Bierce).  Which one are you?

Leo Tanner

#111
December 20, 2009, 04:19:45 PM
So did you clean yer boots after wadin through that pile?  This has been a learning experience for us all.  They claim to only have one smith who was injured.  You have proof otherwise.  They tell you that you have to choose batween BP and nitro.  Aint buyin it.  I have no intention of ever doing busines with that company.  I hope things work out for you but damn!
"When you have to shoot, shoot.  Don't talk."
     Tuco--The Good the Bad and the Ugly

"First comes smiles, then lies.  Last is gunfire."
     Roland Deschain

"Every man steps in the manure now an again, trick is not ta stick yer foot in yer mouth afterward"

religio SENIOR est exordium of scientia : tamen fossor contemno sapientia quod instruction.

Fox Creek Kid

#112
December 24, 2009, 07:16:43 AM
Quote from: J.D. Yellowhammer on December 20, 2009, 05:01:10 AM...The smith called an expert on black powder (a gun writer with decades of experience) and he suggested that I should open the primer flash hole.  Which was an early suggestion in this thread.  And which would cause some headaches 'cause I load both smokeless (sorry  :-[) and black powder, and the altered brass would only be good fer b.p...



J.D., the ´smith knows little if nothing about shooting BP IMO. Yes, case thicknesses vary but that can be remedied by sticking to one brand of brass. As for opening the primer flash hole that is total abject BS. If the guns don´t work right when you get them back then send them to a REAL gunsmith familiar with CAS BP shooting as in the long run you will be dollars ahead as well as stress free.  ;)

Mako

#113
December 24, 2009, 11:00:54 PM
J.D.,
I'm sorry to hear about all of the problems you have been having.  I hope your luck takes a turn for the better.

USFA normally makes fine revolvers and to get two with exactly the same problem gives one pause when considering the probability and how far out you reported them to be.  Did USFA ever tell you how much they measured them out or are they just parroting what you told them when you returned them?  The whole affair including the story about the only gunsmith they had available and the fact he didn't have the expertise himself and had to resort to consulting a writer instead of a skilled gunsmith also gives one pause. 

Then the recommendation about opening the flash holes by the "experienced gun writer" and then passed along by the gunsmith at USFA has me totally perplexed.  It is true people mentioned opening flash holes, they did so to use wax bullets (we also do it for blank loads).  John Boy mentioned it but then added "that school is not out on the subject."  Montana Slim thinks the holes should be examined, but I don't think he was advocating opening them up as he didn't indicate he does it with the pistols and .44WCF loads he shoots.

I'll have to agree with you FCK, but I'll go even further.  This almost seems silly when you think about it...Imagine someone being "foolish enough"  to think you could shoot BP in a .44WCF.

Best of luck to you J.D.  Have a Merry Christmas and hopefully a better new year.
~Mako

P.S. Keeps us apprised of your progress.
A brace of 1860s, a Yellowboy Saddle Rifle and a '78 Pattern Colt Scattergun
MCA, MCIA, MOAA, MCL, SMAS, ASME, SAME, BMES

Blackpowder Burn

#114
December 24, 2009, 11:19:48 PM
JD,

I have 2 USFA's in 44 WCF.  I shot smokeless intially and then changed over to shooting exclusively black powder.  I also use Starline brass.  I have absolutely no problem with primers backing out with either powder.  I've also done the same thing with 2 USFA's in 45LC.  I have a bunch of mixed brass in 45LC - every maker under the sun.  Again, no problems at all.

I'd suggest you call Jim Finch (Long Hunter) and talk to him about it (see his ad on this website).  He sells tons of USFA's (mine were all purchased through him) and I'd bet he could tell you immediately where the problem lies.  He's a super guy and might be able to pull a string or two at USFA to help.  Maybe they'd even ship the guns to him to look at and repair? 
SUBLYME AND HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT
Learned Brother at Armes

J.D. Yellowhammer

#115
January 08, 2010, 04:02:05 PM
Aggie, that's a good suggestion, thanks.

Well, today, January 8, 2010, my Rodeos arrived!  Same as another fellow (on the CSS USFA message board), the box was left on the porch. I wasn't notified or called to let me know of their return. No signature needed and not even a knock on the door to let me know.  Glad I was at home and found them.

I haven't put any brass in them to measure the headspace, and obviously I haven't tried them out yet. (got wrapped up in an ordeal when our truck wouldn't start--took an hour to git goin', then went to the grocery, another ordeal...).  I've got a few different recipes of cartridges to try out, soon as the weather mellows a touch. Then I'll report back on whether or not they're running right.

I really appreciate everyone's advice and suggestions here.  This whole thing has been very disappointing, since I've always sworn by USFA. 

Lunarian, n.  An inhabitant of the moon, as distinguished from Lunatic, one whom the moon inhabits. (Ambrose Bierce).  Which one are you?

Mako

#116
January 09, 2010, 05:23:29 PM
JD,
I'm extremely happy for you!  I'm hoping for the best when you try them out.

Did they send any information on what they did?

Regards,
Mako
A brace of 1860s, a Yellowboy Saddle Rifle and a '78 Pattern Colt Scattergun
MCA, MCIA, MOAA, MCL, SMAS, ASME, SAME, BMES

J.D. Yellowhammer

#117
January 20, 2010, 09:02:09 AM
Mako, the only thing they sent was a SAAMI spec sheet for .44-40 rifles.  I've posted a link to a printable pdf, and a jpg image, below.  I can tell that they replaced the hammers. The smith at USFA told me when he called last month that he was gonna try magnum hammers and recoil plates. 

I still haven't tried them out. The weather was really cold until recently (and I'm recovering from spinal surgery a few weeks ago).  It's warm right now and if the weather can just hold out a little longer, I'll drive down to the range and try out a few different batches of bp ammo.

http://www.dorseyfoto.com/arms/4440SAAMIspec.pdf
Lunarian, n.  An inhabitant of the moon, as distinguished from Lunatic, one whom the moon inhabits. (Ambrose Bierce).  Which one are you?

sail32

#118
August 28, 2011, 12:28:04 PM
A friends antique1894 Marline produces backed out primers like the ones pictured earlier by J.D. Yellowhammer.
The same loads fired in my Uberti Henry did not back out.
The cartridge was .44-40 Starline brass, Federal Magnum pistol primers, 200 grain Lee 429-200-RF, over 33 grains of compressed GOEX FFg, and crimped with a Lee Factory Crimp Dies.
Hope this helps
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