Primers backing out of .44-40 shells

Started by J.D. Yellowhammer, August 08, 2009, 04:40:06 PM

Previous topic - Next topic
Print
Go Down Pages 1 2 3 4 5 6
User actions

J.D. Yellowhammer

#80
August 25, 2009, 07:08:07 AM
Whew, ya'll makin' my poor, ignerrant head spin!  :o

I'm gonna call USFA and see if I can find someone to talk to, as Del suggested.  I've been avoiding that because I don't want to go through the PITA of boxing, shipping, and especially waiting for the return, if the rodeos need to be sent back.  But, ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

Mako touched on something I mentioned doing a while back--switching powders.  I have some SWISS 3f, and I may try it out.  But I also suspect that if it was a pressure problem, I woulda seen an improvement from 1.9cc's to 2.2cc's (about 5 grain-by-weight difference in load). There wasn't really an improvement.  I've tried different cases, different sizing, different loads, and it ain't workin'. The field's gettin' narrow.

I measured the headspace in my USFA Premium .45 LC.  It was .005.  That's less than half the distance of the rodeos.  Personally, I believe the soft "push" of black powder (vs. the sharp recoil of smokeless. thanks, Del) combined with the extra long distance of the headspace (thanks, John Boy), is the culprit.

Once again, thanks to all of ya'll.  I've learned a lot from this discussion!
Lunarian, n.  An inhabitant of the moon, as distinguished from Lunatic, one whom the moon inhabits. (Ambrose Bierce).  Which one are you?

J.D. Yellowhammer

#81
August 25, 2009, 07:12:41 AM
I'm remiss!  I forgot to thank the author with the best suggestion!

Thanks, Driftwood, I would believe that you were the one beacon of light in this cunundrum, with your suggestion about avoiding shiny brass!   :D  But I tried that, already.  If you look at the first picture on about page 5 or so (chronologically, the last one I posted), you'll see that I attempted to use grundgy brass, too.  There were other examples, but vanity and an undue fear of being seen as a "case abuser" caused me to only pick the shiniest, happiest examples for my photographs.   ;)
Lunarian, n.  An inhabitant of the moon, as distinguished from Lunatic, one whom the moon inhabits. (Ambrose Bierce).  Which one are you?

J.D. Yellowhammer

#82
August 25, 2009, 12:17:47 PM
Update for the curious:

I talked to Gary Granger at USFA, and he talked to their engineer. Spec on headspace is about .006.  They're sending me a fed ex label to ship my pistolas in fer a fix.  Here's the pisser, though. They're closed for 2 weeks after this week!  So I haveta wait.
Lunarian, n.  An inhabitant of the moon, as distinguished from Lunatic, one whom the moon inhabits. (Ambrose Bierce).  Which one are you?

Leo Tanner

#83
August 25, 2009, 12:58:06 PM
I'm sure you'll be happy in the end. 
If ya think about it, back in the old days not many cowboys tinkered on their own guns.  There were experts at hardware stores an plain old gun shops that did most of that tweaking an tuning fer an average cowboy or pistolero.  I think ya made the right call.
"When you have to shoot, shoot.  Don't talk."
     Tuco--The Good the Bad and the Ugly

"First comes smiles, then lies.  Last is gunfire."
     Roland Deschain

"Every man steps in the manure now an again, trick is not ta stick yer foot in yer mouth afterward"

religio SENIOR est exordium of scientia : tamen fossor contemno sapientia quod instruction.

Delmonico

#84
August 25, 2009, 01:14:56 PM
If'n the tranny went out on a pcik-up under warrenty myself I wouldn't say ah-oh and call AAMCO, think I'd let the folks who made it do the fixin' but that's just me and some folks don't think I have many smarts.

Good call, JD you did all you should have to, nows the time for them to make good. ;)
Mongrel Historian


Always get the water for the coffee upstream from the herd.

Ab Ovo Usque ad Mala

The time has passed so quick, the years all run together now.

Mako

#85
August 25, 2009, 01:51:34 PM
Quote from: J.D. Yellowhammer on August 25, 2009, 12:17:47 PM
Update for the curious:

I talked to Gary Granger at USFA, and he talked to their engineer. Spec on headspace is about .006.  They're sending me a fed ex label to ship my pistolas in fer a fix.  Here's the pisser, though. They're closed for 2 weeks after this week!  So I haveta wait.
JD,
I hope you find relief, but I predict they will tell you the pistols are to spec.  If they weren't you would have had problems with smokeless loads. 

I'm pretty sure they didn't ask for your handloads because they won't use them at the facility.  Unless the are very different than other firearms companies I have worked with because of liability they will use only the ammunition they use in test firing the pistols at the plant.

Best of luck pard,
Mako
A brace of 1860s, a Yellowboy Saddle Rifle and a '78 Pattern Colt Scattergun
MCA, MCIA, MOAA, MCL, SMAS, ASME, SAME, BMES

Leo Tanner

#86
August 25, 2009, 02:01:30 PM
And there in lies the rub.  So mebbe while the guns are off getting attention, JD can take some of his handloads to a gunsmith and have him look them over.  It would be better to have the guns as well, but if can get a free fix out of it I guess it's worth a shot.
"When you have to shoot, shoot.  Don't talk."
     Tuco--The Good the Bad and the Ugly

"First comes smiles, then lies.  Last is gunfire."
     Roland Deschain

"Every man steps in the manure now an again, trick is not ta stick yer foot in yer mouth afterward"

religio SENIOR est exordium of scientia : tamen fossor contemno sapientia quod instruction.

Mako

#87
August 25, 2009, 02:17:30 PM
Quote from: Leo Tanner on August 25, 2009, 02:01:30 PM
And there in lies the rub.  So mebbe while the guns are off getting attention, JD can take some of his handloads to a gunsmith and have him look them over.  It would be better to have the guns as well, but if can get a free fix out of it I guess it's worth a shot.
Leo,
I hate to be contentious, but what gunsmith would make any determination without seeing the firearm the ammunition is being used in?
~Mako
A brace of 1860s, a Yellowboy Saddle Rifle and a '78 Pattern Colt Scattergun
MCA, MCIA, MOAA, MCL, SMAS, ASME, SAME, BMES

J.D. Yellowhammer

#88
August 25, 2009, 03:51:23 PM
Quote from: Mako on August 25, 2009, 01:51:34 PM
JD,
I hope you find relief, but I predict they will tell you the pistols are to spec.  If they weren't you would have had problems with smokeless loads. 

No, the engineer at USFA already said the guns are out of spec (assuming, of course, that I measured right. And I'd bet the pistols themselves that I did).  So even if the primers aren't a headspace problem, I have twice the amount of headspace the manufacturer tolerates.  So off they go.

But I'll still be trying different batches of powder when I get them back.
Lunarian, n.  An inhabitant of the moon, as distinguished from Lunatic, one whom the moon inhabits. (Ambrose Bierce).  Which one are you?

Leo Tanner

#89
August 25, 2009, 03:58:09 PM
Quote from: Leo Tanner on August 25, 2009, 02:01:30 PM
And there in lies the rub.  So mebbe while the guns are off getting attention, JD can take some of his handloads to a gunsmith and have him look them over.  It would be better to have the guns as well, but if can get a free fix out of it I guess it's worth a shot.

That was my reccomendation.  Go back through though the posts, I said it a couple times.  I can however see the logic in letting USFA get the spacing correct for free.  It may not work and then it's time for a good smith ta look at both the guns and the hand loads.
"When you have to shoot, shoot.  Don't talk."
     Tuco--The Good the Bad and the Ugly

"First comes smiles, then lies.  Last is gunfire."
     Roland Deschain

"Every man steps in the manure now an again, trick is not ta stick yer foot in yer mouth afterward"

religio SENIOR est exordium of scientia : tamen fossor contemno sapientia quod instruction.

Montana Slim

#90
August 25, 2009, 09:55:21 PM
High-speed-photography would give a pretty good idea of what is happening.

Regards,
Slim

P.S. I still suspect the "load" is not the problem.
Western Reenacting                 Dark Lord of Soot
Live Action Shooting                 Pistoleer Extrordinaire
Firearms Consultant                  Gun Cleaning Specialist
NCOWS Life Member                 NRA Life Member

Judge Lead

#91
September 14, 2009, 04:19:39 AM
Well, it's been about 3 weeks now. Has there been any news.

Regards
When we were younger, the days seemed to drag. As we get older, we wish they would.

J.D. Yellowhammer

#92
September 15, 2009, 01:01:16 PM
USFA was supposed to send me a fedex label to ship the guns in a couple of weeks ago. They forgot, and they've been on vacation the last 2 weeks, so there hasn't been any progress. 

If you look in this forum under the chamber pressure thread, there's a good chart someone posted showing the pressure spike in a smokeless round and a bp round of equivalent velocity, etc.  The sharp, fast, and higher pressure peak of the smokeless would explain why my primers stayed in when shooting the heathen stuff, but popped out with the lower pressure bp.

I'll post an update as soon as I get the headspaced guns back.
Lunarian, n.  An inhabitant of the moon, as distinguished from Lunatic, one whom the moon inhabits. (Ambrose Bierce).  Which one are you?

Mako

#93
September 15, 2009, 06:25:04 PM
J.D.,
Did you take sufficient measurements that you will be able to report back what they actually have done to your two pistols?

Also, if you get the chance, write them and ask them to send you an explanation of what they did or attempted to do.  Several of us would like to understand what was happening and how they either fixed it, or attempted to fix it.

Regards,
Mako
A brace of 1860s, a Yellowboy Saddle Rifle and a '78 Pattern Colt Scattergun
MCA, MCIA, MOAA, MCL, SMAS, ASME, SAME, BMES

J.D. Yellowhammer

#94
September 15, 2009, 06:51:50 PM
I measured the headspace on both pistols and most of the shell casings (which matched the guns' headspace, naturally, as the primers couldn't be further out than the headspace).  I also compared the measurements to the headspace on my USFA Premium, which had the correct, in-spec spacing, about .006 as I recall, which is 1/2 of what I found on the rodeos. 

I have a lot of confidence in USFA--I've owned many of their their revolvers.  And I'm really eager to get the rodeos fixed and back onto the range--I have a few different recipes of bp .44-40 loads just waitin'....

Lunarian, n.  An inhabitant of the moon, as distinguished from Lunatic, one whom the moon inhabits. (Ambrose Bierce).  Which one are you?

Fox Creek Kid

#95
September 15, 2009, 07:47:27 PM
Quote from: J.D. Yellowhammer on September 15, 2009, 06:51:50 PM
I measured the headspace on both pistols and most of the shell casings (which matched the guns' headspace, naturally, as the primers couldn't be further out than the headspace).  I also compared the measurements to the headspace on my USFA Premium, which had the correct, in-spec spacing, about .006 as I recall, which is 1/2 of what I found on the rodeos...

No offense, but did you mean 0.060"?

J.D. Yellowhammer

#96
September 16, 2009, 06:57:29 AM
Quote from: Fox Creek Kid on September 15, 2009, 07:47:27 PM
No offense, but did you mean 0.060"?

Oops!  You're right--I let a zero get away from me!  :P

EDIT: I shouldn't be postin' before I've had my coffee.  I was right the 1st time--the headspace was .005 or .006, depending on the shell (rim width effecting headspace)
Lunarian, n.  An inhabitant of the moon, as distinguished from Lunatic, one whom the moon inhabits. (Ambrose Bierce).  Which one are you?

J.D. Yellowhammer

#97
September 16, 2009, 07:23:38 AM
FCK, I see you had a similar problem this summer:

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,26549.0.html

Did you get it worked out?
Lunarian, n.  An inhabitant of the moon, as distinguished from Lunatic, one whom the moon inhabits. (Ambrose Bierce).  Which one are you?

Fox Creek Kid

#98
September 16, 2009, 10:04:59 AM
Yes, I explained it in this very same thread.  ;)

J.D. Yellowhammer

#99
September 16, 2009, 10:59:37 AM
I saw that you thought it was soft primers, but I didn't see that you found out fer sure (for instance, by trying different primers).
Lunarian, n.  An inhabitant of the moon, as distinguished from Lunatic, one whom the moon inhabits. (Ambrose Bierce).  Which one are you?
Print
Go Up Pages 1 2 3 4 5 6
User actions
© 1995 - 2024 CAScity.com