Primers backing out of .44-40 shells

[Delmonico]

What can be explained in two sentances that someone takes 7 or 8 parragraphes to explain just wastes server space.

Hope their house don't catch on fire.

[Mako]

Shhh, that's why I said to measure the rims, cause that's what it headspaces on.   See I'm no engineer so I never mentioned it before cause, well what I learned about this stuff long ago I figgered might have changed with new math or something.

The partial sizing the brass has to do with not pushing the shoulder back and forth to much which with the differances between dies and chambers can cause head separations.

We'll wait for the long answer on this one with the $10 words.

Delmonico,
There really wasn't any need to tell us that you're not an engineer.

If you have problems with some of the words other people use, I'll happily give you links to any number of online dictionaries. 

The rim isn't the problem (when you read to the end of this paragraph you'll understand why I can unequivocally say that); there will always be clearance between the back of the shell and the breech face.  If you can explain why you think it is a problem I will do my best to understand.  I'm at a loss, what do you hope to divine from those dimensions?  Perhaps you can educate us a bit as to why in this case, "rims" are the problem.  If you read JDs replies you would see he uses a Wilson age.  Are you familiar with Wilson case gages and what they measure?

JD's illustration almost shows what happens during a normal set back during any correctly head spaced cartridge firing.  The only thing that it shows that normally doesn't happen is the shoulder being blown out as his simulation shows.  JD reports his cartridges fit the Wilson gage after firing, this wouldn't be the case if the shoulder was being pressure formed as shown.  What JD's actual pictures have shown us is a primer that may not have been fully reseated from the recoiling case hitting the back of the breech.  This is what most of the experienced people here have said more than once. 

Since he is shooting USFAs, firing pin issues can almost be ruled out without much concern.  If he can chamber the cartridges fully then the chamber depth is at least not too short.  They may be too long, but that remains to be seen.  I'm sure he has looked in the chambers and hasn't seen any evidence of chattering or score lines from the reamer.   When JD finally tries his newly loaded cases with at least 2.2ccs of powder we'll all know a little more.

Humbly yours,
Mako

[Delmonico]

Nope, I can 'spain things quite fine with a hell of a lot less words. 

Years ago when I built things for a living, dealt with a lot of different engineers, some good, listened and asked things of the folks who accually built it for a living, some thought they were God.  They ain't no different than other folks, some folks try to impress you with BS, some folks just cut to the quick, and don't waste words.

Funny how thinned skinned some folks can be when it goes their way.

[Mako]

Nope, I can 'spain things quite fine with a hell of a lot less words.  And I also have known for well over 30 years that rimmed cases headspace on the rim, not the shoulder.  you might want to research rim-less bottle necked cases.

Years ago when I built things for a living, dealt with a lot of different engineers, some good, listened and asked things of the folks who accually built it for a living, some thought they were God.  They ain't no different than other folks, some folks try to impress you with BS, some folks just cut to the quick, and don't waste words.

Del,
You're ignoring my question.  I know full well the .44WCF headspaces on the rim.  I have no need to research anything about bottle necked rimmed cases. You keep telling us to measure the rim.  So quit just saying "aw shucks I aint no engineer but I am smartn' one," and digging your boot toe in the dirt and explain yourself.  You may use few words, but I have yet to understand what you are trying to tell us.

Please explain yourself.  I want to understand what you are talking about.

~Mako

[Delmonico]

I was mistaken who JD quoted, I fixed it, but still get tired of you writing a book when a simple explination will do, often do it off-line so folks will understand.

Yer books are a hoot at times, but they don't sell well, or at least from what I see.

But keep it up, there are lots of us who enjoy the laughs.

Jump in on some of the other discussions around here, lets see if your knowledge is broad minded or fits in a narrow spectrum,don't see you in any other fourms around here, a broad knowledge of things is good to have.

[Cuts Crooked]

I'm gonna think about this fer a while. Meantime, it's locked.
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Ok, I'm gonna unlock this one now.
Keep it nice

[J.D. Yellowhammer]

Thanks fer unlocking this.  This has been a very informative thread fer me. I've learned a lot from everyone and I'm sorry if any feathers got ruffled along the way. Never my intention when starting a topic.

Preliminary results from the range:

I only loaded 25 cartridges.  I used different brands of brass.  The shells were loaded with 2.2cc's, leveled-off, Scheutzen 3f. Winchester WLP's.  Bullets were 200 grain soft cast, 2 different makes but similar design, aloxed. 

Backed sizing die out a little, so it wasn't full sized. Made a few shells quite hard to load into cylinder. Either cases bulged a bit, or perhaps the used shells were from my '73 levergun with larger chamber? 

Problem was better but not fixed.  Some primers backed out, at most, 0.012, 0.013. Was enough to almost lock 1 of the rodeos. (measured primer back-out by putting case on flat surface and gently pushing feeler gauges under shell rim until one tipped the shell). Other primers weren't as bad.  One rodeo had problems, as stated. The other one ran pretty good. Accuracy with both was okay. (Shot distances, 10 or 15 yards).

Smokeless shells: zero back-out.

Next step: I gotta clean my pistols before I start measuring headspace, etc.  I'm also wondering if the cylinder pin bushing on the rodeo that had the problems is out a little further than the good-running one? Just a hunch.  Gonna measure to see.  I had trouble even putting the cylinder back into the frame after wiping it down.

Tune in later for more developments on this fast-moving story!   

[J.D. Yellowhammer]

Rechecked everything and measured headspace.  Not surprisingly, the headspace measured .011 for Hornady shells and .012 for Starlines.  Since I probably pushed the primers back in from turning the cylinder, they could not be out further than the headspace.

Same in both pistols, though one was about .0005 tighter (which is probably the one that had more problems locking up).

When I compared the 1.9cc shells to the 2.2cc shells, there was no remarkable difference. Both had primers that measured out about the same, with possibly a hairs difference in the hotter loads.

All of which leads me to believe that headspace, as mentioned by John Boy and others, is the culprit. Which sucks, since the fix is beyond my capabilities.  When the Mav .44's get here I'll probably try some of them and use hotter powder--I have a little Swiss 3f remaining from single shot rifle loads... 
dammit, there's an NCOWS-rules match in Bowling Green next Sat. and I wanted to shoot black!!!   

[Noz]

Thanks fer unlocking this.  This has been a very informative thread fer me. I've learned a lot from everyone and I'm sorry if any feathers got ruffled along the way. Never my intention when starting a topic.

Smokeless shells: zero back-out.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but if headspace was the problem, the smokeless rounds should also show primer prioblems.

[Leo Tanner]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but if headspace was the problem, the smokeless rounds should also show primer prioblems.

I don't know, but it seems that the higher pressures of nitro would be enough ta knock that sucker back in.

Just a thought.  And JD, if ya gotta shoot the match smokeless, at least yer still shootin the match.  I know it aint the same but it's like the old saying "a bad day fishin is better than a good day workin".

[J.D. Yellowhammer]

I don't know, but it seems that the higher pressures of nitro would be enough ta knock that sucker back in.

Just a thought.  And JD, if ya gotta shoot the match smokeless, at least yer still shootin the match.  I know it aint the same but it's like the old saying "a bad day fishin is better than a good day workin".

Thanks, I agree with you on both counts, Leo.  But it's still disappointin'.  One of the main reasons I got these .44-40s was to shoot the real powder.   

[Leo Tanner]

Well here's a suggestion I haven't heard mentiond here as of yet.  Take a handfull of your loads and both guns to a reputable shop/smith.  Mark the gun that you don't have problem with the higher loads and see what he has ta say.  It may be one of those problems that no amount of innernet bantering is gonna fix.  Someone knowedgable needs ta put their hands on what you have, ammo and hardware.  A decent guy will just tell you what is wrong at no charge an offer a fix if it's the pistol.

That's what I would do at this point.  Heck, there might even be another customer at the store that over hears you an has a few good words, that's happened ta me more than once.

[Delmonico]

Even more, at this point I think USAF needs contacted since they built it, see what they have to say.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again boys, my this thread has certainly grown since the last time I checked it.

J.D. Yellowhammer, your problem is obvious, I'm surprised nobody else noticed. Your brass is WAY TOO SHINY.

My 44-40 or 45 Colt brass never gets that shiny, after being fired with Black Powder. Here's what I suggest you do. Next time you go to a match, dump your spent brass into a jug of water with a little bit of dishsoap in it as usual. You don't have to do it immidiately on emptying the brass from the guns, the end of the match is soon enough. Then drive home with the brass sloshing around in the jug on the floor of the car, to keep the soot in suspension. Now here is the secret. Place your jug of brass in your loading room, and completely forget about it for a month or so. After a month, your brass will be so black in the jug you will think it is a lost cause. But never fear, rinse and dry your black brass, fill the tumbler up with lizzard litter, dump in that dirty brass and fire up the tumbler. Let it run 6 or 8 hours. Your brass will never get so new and embarrasingly shiny again, it will be a dull, mottled 'dirty brass' color.

Here's a photo of some old and new ammo. The 44-40 on the far right is one of mine. That's one of the shinier ones, you ought to see the ugly ones. Ignore that 44 Special third from the right, it is a Smokeless round and does not count.




By the way, here is what Kuhnhausen has to say about head space in a SAA. First off, SAAMI rim thickness for the 44-40 is .055 to .065. Most of the Winchester 44-40 I have runs right around .055. I have a few Starline in my miscellaneous 44-40 drawer and it is running around .055 to .057. Still on the low end of the tolerance. Anyway, Kuhnahausen says that optimum headspace for a SAA in ANY CALIBER is .006. So obviously the thickness of the brass will have an influence. Also, note that headspace is ideally measured in a gun with zero endshake. Any endshake (front to back play of the cylinder) complicates matters. One can measure headspacing with the cylinder shoved all the way back, but optimum measurement will be with endshake reduced to zero.

P.S. They most certainly did have calipers and micrometers in the 19th Century. How the heck do you think they measured the parts? The firearms manufacturing industry was probably one of the premier 19th Century High Tech industries that drove mechanical inovations, like precision measuring tools. Measuring devices using a screw like a micrometer go back to the 17th Century. In 1848 a Frenchman named Palmer made a handheld precision measuring device using a screw. In 1867 Brown and Sharp began mass producing micrometers that were inexpensive enough that any machine shop would have one. Brown and Sharp also made the first mass produced affordable vernier calipers in 1851. Dial and digital calipers came a bit later.

[Montana Slim]

Slim, this may be a dumb question (but I'm not vain  )  If the .44-40 headspaces on the rim, what effect does the shoulder have on the problem?  I know true bottlenecks headspace on the shoulder, but I thought the problem here could be in back, at the rim? Seems like the deep shoulder would just lead to stretched cases, right?  EDIT--BTW: I just checked several cases. My Wilson case gauge is showing my .44-40 cases almost perfect length after firing.

Well, I happen to be an engineer, but I'm off the clock at the moment & I didn' stay at a Holiday Inn lately. 
I hate to put too much thought after-hours, but on the shoulder set-back, my theory is that  (the overly sized 44-40 cartridge) case moves rearward at a higher-than-design velocity, bounces off of the breech, then reaches highest pressure, causing the cartridge body & neck to expand - gripping the sidewalls. At this time pressure causes movement of the primer to fill the slight, but excess headspace (backout). Kinda thin, I admit, but I'm not trying to blame space Monkeys or the anemic load you're runnin'. I've worked a lot of theories on modern weapon problems and & I'll have to admit I'm lucky enough that testing has proved me correct more often than not.

Optimal sizing for me is just at the point the cartridge will chamber in my tightest chamber. This is on my ASM Frontier Six-Shooter.

BTW, ran 35 rounds through the ol' ASM at Sunday's match. Hardest hitting pistol loads on our posse. Someone said they were knocking the teeth out of the steel cowboy poppers.

Regards,
Slim

[Delmonico]

Slim, that makes sense and nice and to the point.  The things that firearms and cartridges can drive us crazy, a tech from Hornaday told me once it drives them even crazier because it has to work right all the time in not just two or three firearms but all of them

[Mako]

Slim, this may be a dumb question (but I'm not vain  )  If the .44-40 headspaces on the rim, what effect does the shoulder have on the problem?  I know true bottlenecks headspace on the shoulder, but I thought the problem here could be in back, at the rim? Seems like the deep shoulder would just lead to stretched cases, right?  EDIT--BTW: I just checked several cases. My Wilson case gauge is showing my .44-40 cases almost perfect length after firing.

Well, I happen to be an engineer, but I'm off the clock at the moment & I didn' stay at a Holiday Inn lately. 
I hate to put too much thought after-hours, but on the shoulder set-back, my theory is that  (the overly sized 44-40 cartridge) case moves rearward at a higher-than-design velocity, bounces off of the breech, then reaches highest pressure, causing the cartridge body & neck to expand - gripping the sidewalls. At this time pressure causes movement of the primer to fill the slight, but excess headspace (backout). Kinda thin, I admit, but I'm not trying to blame space Monkeys or the anemic load you're runnin'. I've worked a lot of theories on modern weapon problems and & I'll have to admit I'm lucky enough that testing has proved me correct more often than not.

Optimal sizing for me is just at the point the cartridge will chamber in my tightest chamber. This is on my ASM Frontier Six-Shooter.

BTW, ran 35 rounds through the ol' ASM at Sunday's match. Hardest hitting pistol loads on our posse. Someone said they were knocking the teeth out of the steel cowboy poppers.

Regards,
Slim

Slim,
Not a bad theory but it seems to fly in the face of what JD has told us.  I'm sure you've used Wilson gages or the government equivalent thereof.  How would the cartridge fit the gage correctly and show "perfect" length after firing if the dynamics were as you postulate?  If this were a problem then factory formed cases would have the same problem wouldn't they? 

You really can't push the shoulder back too far with the dies I have used.  I have RCBS and Redding (Dillon).  You'd bottom out on the bottom of the die before you can go further than a factory formed case.  I load factory cases without forming and just load and crimp.  The shell looks very different after fire forming to my chambers.

JD has used both fully sized cases and most recently only partially sized cases to the point it was hard to chamber the cartridges. As he says below:

...Backed sizing die out a little, so it wasn't full sized. Made a few shells quite hard to load into cylinder. Either cases bulged a bit, or perhaps the used shells were from my '73 levergun with larger chamber? 

Problem was better but not fixed.  Some primers backed out, at most, 0.012, 0.013. Was enough to almost lock 1 of the rodeos. (measured primer back-out by putting case on flat surface and gently pushing feeler gauges under shell rim until one tipped the shell). Other primers weren't as bad.  One rodeo had problems, as stated. The other one ran pretty good. ...
Smokeless shells: zero back-out.
Next step: I gotta clean my pistols before I start measuring headspace, etc.  I'm also wondering if the cylinder pin bushing on the rodeo that had the problems is out a little further than the good-running one? Just a hunch.  Gonna measure to see.  I had trouble even putting the cylinder back into the frame after wiping it down.
Tune in later for more developments on this fast-moving story!   

There is one more clue that several have mentioned.   "JD: Smokeless shells: zero back-out."  People keep telling him to contact USFA and so forth.  If it is a chamber problem he would have it with smokeless as well.  I mean really,  would you argue otherwise?

Slim you and I have a lot of experience with modern weapons, tell me what your FMEA matrix would look like if it kept coming down to one propellant?  That's what he keeps telling us isn't it?  Smokeless works fine, BP with his loads don't.  So what would you look at, the weapon or the cartridge?  It's not simply the propellant, it's the cartridge.  The bullet, case, propellant and primer.  Everyone keeps dancing around it but the facts are: Smokeless, Zero Problems; Schutzen FFFg from 1.9 to 2.2 ccs, the primers back out.  So if you were on the clock would you make a presentation and tell everyone to look at the weapon, or the cartridge with the propellant that causes the problem.  (Again we are not dealing with gas operated weapons or anything that requires an impulse to function, we are talking revolvers here.)  So tell me whatt you would tell your team to look at tomorrow morning?

Let's get smart about it and figure it out...

~Mako

[Leo Tanner]

That's why I suggested that he take not only the guns but a hand full of his loads to a professional.

Well here's a suggestion I haven't heard mentiond here as of yet.  Take a handfull of your loads and both guns to a reputable shop/smith.  Mark the gun that you don't have problem with the higher loads and see what he has ta say.  It may be one of those problems that no amount of innernet bantering is gonna fix.  Someone knowedgable needs ta put their hands on what you have, ammo and hardware.  A decent guy will just tell you what is wrong at no charge an offer a fix if it's the pistol.

That's what I would do at this point.  Heck, there might even be another customer at the store that over hears you an has a few good words, that's happened ta me more than once.

[Delmonico]

That's why I suggested that he take not only the guns but a hand full of his loads to a professional.

And why I said to contact the maker.   

[Fox Creek Kid]

Alright, I'm back in the ring. This could be also caused by a combo of too light a load and varying case rims thicknesses working in unison. Next time ISOLATE the cases that do this and measure the rim thicknesses.

I will also add this, recently I had this same problem on a brand new Colt FSS. The primers were being pulled back out a little upon cocking after a round fired as the FP is a little too long for Wolf primers as they are a little thin. Well, since Wolf is all I could get this Summer I uniformed the primer pockets on my 44-40 pistol brass which eliminated the primers being pulled out a tad by the firing pin as the primers sat a frog hair deeper. Worked great.....................until I used THAT ammo in my other Colt FSS. Many light hits. I had to segregate the brass.