Primers backing out of .44-40 shells

[J.D. Yellowhammer]

Another

[Fox Creek Kid]

Try a hotter load and see what happens.

[john boy]

I'd rule out excessive pressure and IMHO ... it's the gap between the cylinder face and the frame.  Shoot some in a rifle and compare the cases

[Mako]

Okay, here are a few shots of the shells.  The first is just an average sample to show how they look when they come out of my Dillon progressive.  The second and third shots show how the primers have flattened and backed out.  Afraid this is the best I can do without going into a big production (I don't have a tripod here--they're at the studio):

http://www.dorseyfoto.com/73/shellprob0.jpg

http://www.dorseyfoto.com/73/shellprob1.jpg

http://www.dorseyfoto.com/73/shellprob3.jpg

J.D.,
That's not even close to being "flattened."  Those primers haven't seen much pressure at all. In fact I've seen primers popped without powder that almost look like that.

This thread has been up here so long I decided to back track it a little.  You said you had been using 1.9cc of Schutzen FFFg so I decided to see how many grains it actually is.  Lee says it's only 30.3 grains,  I just measured some FFFg Schutzen, some Goex and some Skirmish.  They all measure from under 30 (Schutzen FFFg) to less than 31 grains (Skirmish) by volume.   The reason you see a difference is that the more uniform powders like Schutzen settle a bit more every time you pour them into a different measure,  the same is true when you dump into your case.

Your problem is that you don't have enough powder as a lot of people have told you.  I dumped 1.9ccs of Schutzen  into a case and then compared it to a Mav Dutchman, it would barely touch the powder as dumped.  You told us you weren't using Mav Dutchmans, if you still aren't then you have even more space, the Mav Dutchman has more bullet back in the case than any other 200 grain I have ever seen because of the large grease groove which makes the bullet longer.  If you rattle it around a bit you get NO compression.  You need to put that 1.9cc scoop away and get out your 2.2cc scoop and put at least 35 grains in there.

You have said you were going to add more powder, have you, and how much are you throwing now?

Regards,
Mako

[Mako]

Royal--that's darned interesting. I wonder if it's the starlines?  I can't remember if I used 1 x shot brass or new, but they were fairly fresh.  I'll have to dig up some different brass and try it. I think I have some different cases from store-bought ammo kicking around. And the next black powder rounds I load will be in used brass.

John Boy--great suggestions as always!    I'll try to get some pictures taken of the cases tomorrow, and I'll try the neck sizing.

Can't remember if I mentioned it in my first post, but these were shot in USFA Rodeos, and the tolerances are pretty tight.

Thanks everyone!   

J.D.,
Where did you get Rodeos in .44-40?  I have talked with Doug at the SHOT show several times trying to get him to make the Rodeo available in .44-40 and every time he tells me there isn't enough of a market.  I even asked if they would just pull 2 pairs (4 ¾ and 5 ½) of SAAs  going through the line and send them through the Rodeo finishing line instead of the Case hardening and "Dome Blue" finish.  He laughed and said the "custom" work would make them as expensive as a regular pair of SAAs.

I of course challenged him on that since I have set up a line just like his, he agreed it wouldn't be as much but the special routing would make it a problem and they had too much on their plate.

I'll buy those rodeos from you, I don't even care what length they are.  Name your price.

Regards,
Mako

[J.D. Yellowhammer]

J.D.,
Where did you get Rodeos in .44-40?  I have talked with Doug at the SHOT show several times trying to get him to make the Rodeo available in .44-40 and every time he tells me there isn't enough of a market.  I even asked if they would just pull 2 pairs (4 ¾ and 5 ½) of SAAs  going through the line and send them through the Rodeo finishing line instead of the Case hardening and "Dome Blue" finish.  He laughed and said the "custom" work would make them as expensive as a regular pair of SAAs.

Mako,
I probably shouldn't tell you this after you've gone through a lot of time and trouble trying to get rodeos custom-made....  I asked Gary Granger in Aug., 2007, about getting rodeos in .44-40 and he said, "no problem."  They didn't cost near as much as the premiums (I'd have to look at the rcp't for exact, but it was substantially less).  In a couple of months I had them in hand. 
Not sure I'd be willin' to part with 'em....  Sorry. 

[J.D. Yellowhammer]

Mako, John Boy and the rest,  many thanks for the great suggestions! 

Mako, I used the smaller dipper but I didn't level off the top, in fact I left a heap on top. When I measured the volume against the bullet it looked right, with a little comp. I'm definitely going to the 2.2cc dipper.  And I wish I had some feedback about the new loads, but the SOB that I ordered LP primers from, at a price I'd rather not divulge lest you think me an idiot,  and who told me he sent them out about 5 days ago, actually sent them yesterday so they won't be here for a few days.... 

[Mako]

Mako,
I probably shouldn't tell you this after you've gone through a lot of time and trouble trying to get rodeos custom-made....  I asked Gary Granger in Aug., 2007, about getting rodeos in .44-40 and he said, "no problem."  They didn't cost near as much as the premiums (I'd have to look at the rcp't for exact, but it was substantially less).  In a couple of months I had them in hand. 
Not sure I'd be willin' to part with 'em....  Sorry. 

J.D.,
JUST GREAT...I think Gary is no longer with USFA (that's been the rumor).  I should have known talking with Doug was a mistake.

What barrel length are they? And if you do find that receipt, send me a PM if you don't mind.  I may try talking with someone else there if he is in fact gone.  Don't worry I won't "rat you out."  I'll just say I saw a pair and wanted to get my own.
 
My daughters both shoot Rodeos in .38 spl., I'd probably have to change my claim from shooting exclusively C&B at CAS matches if I had a pair in .44 WCF.  One last thing, how did they mark the barrel?  .44-40 or .44 WCF?

Thanks,

Mako

[J.D. Yellowhammer]

PM sent.

Also, they're 4 3/4" barrels, barrel marked: "Frontier Six Shooter 44-40"  And the frame is stamped with patent marks. I sorta wish I'd got the 5 1/2" barrels, but I still like these pistols a lot.

I've installed lighter main springs and I'm probably gonna partially buff the finish off sometime.

[Montana Slim]

Somehow I doubt it's too low a pressure. My old ASM 44-40 has ran 10 gr of 3F with cornmeal filler & 200 grain pill for my son to try. He's not too interested in handguns yet, but the loads worked fine.


Regards,
Slim

[Mako]

Somehow I doubt it's too low a pressure. My old ASM 44-40 has ran 10 gr of 3F with cornmeal filler & 200 grain pill for my son to try. He's not too interested in handguns yet, but the loads worked fine.


Regards,
Slim

Slim,
Then we will just have to disagree, it has all the signs of a classic under pressure, low recoiling revolver cartridge.    Did you look at the cases after they came out?  They don't always seize things up, sometimes they are just proud.  You can demonstrate it for yourself by just snapping a primer in a case and look at what the primer does without recoil.

I think if you polled the camp, you would find the majority concurs. 

Best regards,
Mako

[Fox Creek Kid]

I agree that it's too light. In some guns you MIGHT get by if it's a particularly smooth chamber, hence less chamber wall adhesion and more rearward "bolt thrust" reseating the primer.

[Blackpowder Burn]

Mako,

I was told by Gary Granger and Long Hunter that USFA would make up Rodeo's in any caliber you want for an extra $100 per gun.  I'm thinking of a pair of Rodeo II's in 32-20.  I've also seen Gary on the forum recently, so don't think the rumor was true.

[Montana Slim]

I only made up 100 or so of those light loads. My son does not particularly like shooting revolvers at this time, so I fired them myself to be shed of them. Never tried it again, I have no reason to. My standard load is similar to J.D.s except I use 2F powder, a card wad and MAV 44.

My gun is likely a fluke...it's one of the early ASMs.....quality is pretty good and has details nearly as good as an old Colt.
The headspace is fairly tight. Only twice has this revolver had rotation issues: (1) when my cartridge case resizing settings got fouled and turned out to be setting the shoulder waay back, and (2) when the firing pin bushing loosened and started unscrewing itself (yes, it has a hardened, threaded bushing). Applied loctite, turned it back in and away we go. This was not as easy to spot as it sounds. The bushing only moved a slight amount to cause this perplexing problem.

I have a pard in Illinois who uses a 15 grain load of 3F and filler (cardboard) in all his 44-40 loads. No problems with primers backing out for him either. He used those loads in his Uberti SAAs for years before swithing pistols to OTs / .44 Russian. BTW, 15 grains is roughly half of J.D.s load of 1.9cc.

Remember too, that filler material adds mass to the effective projectile weight...actually the mass of the BP charge has the same effect. Could increase pressure just enough to compensate.

IMO, The powder charge and bullet are two items I'd move down my checklist. Gun and case criteria move up. Other cartridge criteria including flash hole diameter / sizing, and gun criteria such as the FP busing would be bumped up higher.

Regards,
Slim

[J.D. Yellowhammer]

Only twice has this revolver had rotation issues: (1) when my cartridge case resizing settings got fouled and turned out to be setting the shoulder waay back, and (2)....

IMO, The powder charge and bullet are two items I'd move down my checklist. Gun and case criteria move up. Other cartridge criteria including flash hole diameter / sizing, and gun criteria such as the FP busing would be bumped up higher.

Regards,
Slim

Slim, this may be a dumb question (but I'm not vain  )  If the .44-40 headspaces on the rim, what effect does the shoulder have on the problem?  I know true bottlenecks headspace on the shoulder, but I thought the problem here could be in back, at the rim? Seems like the deep shoulder would just lead to stretched cases, right?  EDIT--BTW: I just checked several cases. My Wilson case gauge is showing my .44-40 cases almost perfect length after firing.

Edited as a public service, after research, to add this neat little illustration showing ignition, primer movement, case separation from excess shoulder space:

[Delmonico]

Shhh, that's why I said to measure the rims, cause that's what it headspaces on.   See I'm no engineer so I never mentioned it before cause, well what I learned about this stuff long ago I figgered might have changed with new math or something.

The partial sizing the brass has to do with not pushing the shoulder back and forth to much which with the differances between dies and chambers can cause head separations.

We'll wait for the long answer on this one with the $10 words.

[Dick Dastardly]

Thanks for sharing that illustration JD.  It helps pards visualize what happens to the brass when a gun goes bang.

I've never had objectionable case stretching in the web as illustrated on any of my SASS brass, but I've seen it in some of my high intensity rifles.  My .257 Durham Jet and 25 Gibbs are two that can really stretch brass if care isn't taken.

DD-DLoS

[J.D. Yellowhammer]

Thanks for sharing that illustration JD.  It helps pards visualize what happens to the brass when a gun goes bang.

I've never had objectionable case stretching in the web as illustrated on any of my SASS brass, but I've seen it in some of my high intensity rifles.  My .257 Durham Jet and 25 Gibbs are two that can really stretch brass if care isn't taken.

DD-DLoS

Yer welcome, DD!    And it's good to know that your experience shows lack-of-stretch.  It seems like pistol loads just wouldn't generate all that much pressure, as to stretch 'em.  Del, I rely heavily on your experience and wisdom, too. I can understand what you say (and don't have to ponder it for a while). 

I just switched my Dillon back to .44-40 (been loadin' .38's for the little lady).  I'm waitin' to hear from Slim about an order of the Mav .44's, but until then, I'm gonna load some aloxed bullets with the black and try again at 2.2 cc's and partial sizing, per the suggestions here.
BTW--I just weighed the 1.9cc and 2.2 cc dippers with my batch of Scheutzen, and the difference was roughly 5 grains, which is significant volume, I think.

[Delmonico]

BTW I like that little clip, makes it even easier.  A lot of folks who have never really read a good loading manual from cover to cover don't realize most have pictures that explain these things also, but not as cool.

[J.D. Yellowhammer]

BTW I like that little clip, makes it even easier.  A lot of folks who have never really read a good loading manual from cover to cover don't realize most have pictures that explain these things also, but not as cool.

The later it gets in life for me, the less it matters what I've read.  I suffer from CRS and subscribe to KISS as a philosophy (not the band!).   

Heck, if I wait a little while before I watch a dvd fer the 2nd time, it's like a brand new movie!