Primers backing out of .44-40 shells

[Arizona Trooper]

Mako,
  I'm not talking ignition problems with hotter primers, just consistency. Actually, the reason I would like to load 44-40 with rifle primers is because of the greatly reduced sensitivity, not any performance advantage. In tube magazine rifles, rifle primers are a lot safer because they are so much less sensitive. A slightly high primer is less likely to go off in the magazine.

  As far as consistency, the tests I've run have been with Spencer 56-56, 56-50, 50-70 Govt. and 45-80 Long Range Springfield. The Spencer rounds have about the same capacity as 44-40. When shooting black powder, a switch from regular LR primers to magnums almost always results in lower Std. Dev. in my limited experience.  I haven't tested a 44-40 with large pistol and LP mag. The only one I own at the moment is a Whitney Kennedy, and it's a tack driver with pretty much whatever you put in it, so I haven't done a lot of load development on it, but I am very careful to check proper primer seating. 

  That's just my experience, for what it's worth.

[Delmonico]

Mako,
  I'm not talking ignition problems with hotter primers, just consistency. The tests I've run myself have been with Spencer 56-56, 56-50, 50-70 Govt. and 45-80 Long Range Springfield. The Spencer rounds have about the same capacity as 44-40. When shooting black powder, a switch from regular LR primers to magnums almost always results in lower Std. Dev. in my limited experience.  I haven't tested a 44-40. The only one I own at the moment is a Whitney Kennedy, and it's a tack driver with whatever you put in it.

  That's just my experience, for what it's worth.

Testing and experimentation will show what one gun likes, might not be what another one likes.  My 45-70 Pedersoli Sharps likes Federal 215M's, it also likes a tight taper crimp.  Will yours like that best?  Don't know, you have to experiment.  Same goes for any rifle, shotgun or handgun, I've always found they work best when you feed them what they like.  Others mileage may vary.

[Montana Slim]

I had this problem after adjusting my dies such that I was setting the shoulder back excessively.
Properly setting the dies (for me) is to use the tightest chambered firearm to determine the die setting to allow easy chambering without setting the shoulder too far. This may not be your problem, but it had an effect on my primers backing out slightly.

Regards,
Slim

[Grapeshot]

JD,

I load the 44-40 with enough Goex 2F and the 200 grain Mav Dutchman to get about 1/8" compression on the powder.  I use the Lee 141 scoop, which gives me about 33 grains by weight powder.  I load with Winchester LP primers, and have had no problems.  I shoot them in a pair of USFA SAA's.

While it's not a maximum load, I find it greatly amusing to observe folks at our matches.  Many of the light load, small caliber crowd accuse me of knocking down targets with the concussion, and not the bullet! 

Well it could be worse.  I was using 777 and some HARD Cast .44 RCBS cowboy boolits and was accused of using depleted uranium after leaving 10 craters on the Buffalo target we were supposed to dump into.  It had been my fault and I made it right.  I had loaded the 777 like I loaded the Goex.  Fill the case and compress, then seat the boolit.  I have on occassion knocked targets over with that load as well.

I no longer use 777.

[Grapeshot]

I recently switched from 45 LC to .44-40.  Today I loaded some shells with bp for the 1st time, then went to the range.  Every shot caused the primer to back out and by the time I got to the last round I could barely turn the cylinder (the tolerances are pretty tight on my USFA).  This may be a stupid question, but is it that my charges were too hot? 

I was using Starline brass, LPPs, and soft cast 200g bullets.  I used the 1.9cc Lee dipper, which filled the case pretty well (actually, it looked just a hair low and since I wanted to get a little compression I added a touch, so it may have been 2cc's.)  I used Schuetzen 3F.  I always filled the case with a touch of compression with the 45's but never had this problem.

On the bright side, it was a hoot seeing all the black semi-auto shooters jump when the flame and smoke roared out of the pistol! 

I read about that problem years ago in an article in one of the gun mags about a shoot  out between a Texas Ranger and some desperado.  He was able to free up his Colt and win the fight, but he then got rid of the .44-40 and bought a Colt .45.

[Blackpowder Burn]

Wish I'd been there to buy that 44-40 from the Ranger.  I'd have gotten a good gun for probably a very attractive price! I love the caliber - I have 2 revolvers and 3 rifles chambered for it.

[john boy]

I had loaded the 777 like I loaded the Goex.

Grapeshot ... guess you missed the emphasis in the H777 data that says ... reduce H777 powder charge 10% from an original gunpowder charge! 

And there is one aspect related to the initial post that should be mentioned ... burrs on the the flash holes of the cases .  They will cause multiple issues for erratic ignition and consequences, regardless of the primer type your rifle likes ... as Del mentioned.  Spend the 12 bucks and buy the Lyman flash hole uniformer tool.  Plus, enlarging the primer hole shooting BP ... school is not out on this subject.  But if one is shooting nitro powder ... it's a No No!

[Delmonico]

Thanks John Boy, always worry when folks say "this is what guns like."  My self, I  always found it better to feed them what they like, (with in reason of course.)

[john boy]

My self, I  always found it better to feed them what they like, (with in reason of course.)

Yes Sir, Del.  Folks don't always realize this to be the case.  Every rifle is different, just like a lady    And the same loading data for a given bullet will not always shoot the same in every rifle.  Plus, Range Time is the key to success at multiple distances if one plans to shoot past 100yds!  Then when the given recipe is found that one's rifle likes ... don't change and go experimenting again!  Just shoot it more to perfect ones shooting technique

Wish I have had learned this when I got into the BPCR sport.  But I'm down now to about 6 bullet recipes that my rifles like for the various calibers. May have to have a mold sale or buy more rifles!

[royal barnes]

Your problem may be similar to one I had. When I first switched to 44-40 I bought new Starline Brass. I was loading 2.2cc of 2f Goex. A number of the primers backed out in pistols and rifle. I called Starline and sent them a few pieces of new and once fired brass for evaluation. They advised me that all brass checked was within factory specs. I switched to Winchester brass and experienced no problems. I kept playing with the Starline Brass and after two loadings the primer pockets had apparently formed to the primers and the problem went away. Can't explain the wherefores and whys but this was my experience. Try a different brand of brass. Can't hurt anything.

[john boy]

Royal, I don't shoot 44-40's but loading black in Starline ... 38-55 (2.080 and 2.125), 45 Colt, 45-70, 45-90 and 50-70 brass I've not noticed any excess backout.  I've loaded each caliber with both LP and LR primers (CCI and Federal). Except for the 45 Colt's, I do ream the primer pocket on all new cases.  And have noticed with Starline's, 1st primer seating with CCI's is on the hard side but after they are shot at least once - easy primer seating

I looked back through the whole thread and unless I missed it, excess head space was not mentioned.  The 2 primary causes for excessive back out is high pressure and excess head space.  Both conditions will show the primer partially out of the pocket and the face of the primer will be flat. Head space greater that 0.002 - 0.004 is excess head space
Would be helpful if JD would take a couple of pictures and post them.  We could get a better idea of the cause.
JD - also measure your cylinder gap back to the frame

Now, here's another possible case ... full length resizing of the case.  The dies are cut to SAAMI specs and many of the firearms today are not exactly SAAMI specs.  So I shoot a case that has been full length re-sized and the chamber is slightly smaller than SAAMI - the case moves back with a primer face flattened and partially out of the case

JD, might want to just neck size your next batch of brass and see what the primers look like after you shoot them

[J.D. Yellowhammer]

Royal--that's darned interesting. I wonder if it's the starlines?  I can't remember if I used 1 x shot brass or new, but they were fairly fresh.  I'll have to dig up some different brass and try it. I think I have some different cases from store-bought ammo kicking around. And the next black powder rounds I load will be in used brass.

John Boy--great suggestions as always!    I'll try to get some pictures taken of the cases tomorrow, and I'll try the neck sizing.

Can't remember if I mentioned it in my first post, but these were shot in USFA Rodeos, and the tolerances are pretty tight.

Thanks everyone!   

[Delmonico]

Just a though, measure the rim thickness on the Starline brass and a couple other brands if you can.  44-40 headspaces on the rim, a thin rim could cause this.  Seen it in some 30-30 cases years ago. 

[J.D. Yellowhammer]

Thanks, Del. I'll mic ithe rims.

Man, I'm getting a long list to try out!  Makes ya wonder how they did it in the 19th century without mics and calipers and the number one tool for these problems: the internet! 

Edit RE: the post above--how do ya neck size a .44-40? Seems like you need a special die, since it's a psuedo-bottleneck.

[Delmonico]

Thanks, Del. I'll mic ithe rims.

Man, I'm getting a long list to try out!  Makes ya wonder how they did it in the 19th century without mics and calipers and the number one tool for these problems: the internet! 

Edit RE: the post above--how do ya neck size a .44-40? Seems like you need a special die, since it's a psuedo-bottleneck.

You don't want to do a true neck size, set the die to fully size the neck and partly size the body, and just bump the shoulder, but not push it back.  Common way to do a lot of high power bottle neck rifle rounds.  If you don't bump the shoulder it can creep forward a bit and cause chambering problems.

If you need more info on how, just let me know.

[royal barnes]

To carry my post further I have bought some once fired .44-40 Starline Brass from a fellow shooter since that first purchase and experienced no problems at all.  That first batch of Starline may have been my problem. Now that I think back I had ordered 1000 pieces and all the problems came from the first bag of 500. I have to repeat though that I loaded and shot Winchester, Remington and some Hornady brass around the same time and had no difficulties whatsoever.

[J.D. Yellowhammer]

You don't want to do a true neck size, set the die to fully size the neck and partly size the body, and just bump the shoulder, but not push it back.  Common way to do a lot of high power bottle neck rifle rounds.  If you don't bump the shoulder it can creep forward a bit and cause chambering problems.

If you need more info on how, just let me know.

Gracias, mi amigo!

[Noz]

Starline is my 44-40 brass of choice.  Never a brass related problem.

[Delmonico]

Any companay can have a problem now and then.  Back in the 80's I quit buying Remingtton brass for a while because of a problem.

[J.D. Yellowhammer]

Okay, here are a few shots of the shells.  The first is just an average sample to show how they look when they come out of my Dillon progressive.  The second and third shots show how the primers have flattened and backed out.  Afraid this is the best I can do without going into a big production (I don't have a tripod here--they're at the studio):