caliber for BP

Started by Pinto Jim, August 05, 2009, 07:11:58 PM

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Pinto Jim

 shooitng .45's now but a pard let me shoot his outfit with BP loaded up and hooked me , automatically started loking at .44/40 but have had several people suggest .38/40  whats the pros and cons on these two calibers?

Driftwood Johnson

Howdy

Historically, the 44-40 was created by Winchester in 1873 for their brand new Model 1873 rifle. It carried more powder than its predecessor the 44 Henry Rimfire cartridge, which was the cartridge that both the 1860 Model Henry and Winchester Model 1866 had been chambered for. The new cartridge carried 40 grains of Black Powder under a 200 grain bullet, while the Henry cartridge only carried about 26-28 grains of powder under a 200 grain bullet. Because of the increased power of the 44-40 over the Henry round, the new 1873 rifle had an iron frame, rather than the brass frames of the two earlier rifles. Because it was a Boxer primed centerfire cartridge the 44-40 was reloadable, the earlier rimfire cartridge was not. By 1878 the Colt Single Action Army was chambered for 44-40 and it became the second most popular chambering for the 1st Generation SAA with around 70,000 revolvers chambered for the round, vs about 158,000 1st Gen Colts being chambered for 45 Colt.

The 38-40 cartridge was also developed by Winchester in 1879. 38-40 is not a true 38 caliber, the bullet is actually 40 caliber, it is anybody's guess why Winchester named it 38-40, but they did. From the taper back, the 38-40 cartridge and the 44-40 cartridge are identical, the 38-40 is simply necked down more. The 38-40 originally carried a 180 grain bullet and 40 grains of Black Powder.
It was first chambered in the Colt SAA in 1884. Sales of the 38-40 caliber guns never equalled the sales of 44-40, about 50,000 1st Gen Colts were chambered for it but only about 25,000 Winchester Model 1873 rifles were ever chambered for the cartridge vs about 566,000 being chambered for the 44-40 cartridge. In fact, I have often speculated that the 38-40 was introduced because Winchester felt they had begun to saturate the market for the Model 1873 rifle and tried to pick up sales with a new caliber offering.

You are going to hear a lot of guff about the 44-40 and 38-40 being superior Black Powder cartridges because of the bottleneck case, which helps seal the chamber of a rifle better than the straight cased 45 Colt cartridge. This is not true. The superior chamber sealing properties of the two Winchester cartridge are due to the very thin brass at the necks, only about .007 thick, vs about .012 thick at the neck for 45 Colt. High pressure gas has no problems going around corners, and the taper on the 44-40 is so slight that it can barely be called a bottleneck. It is all about the thinness of the brass.

With Black Powder you can stuff the same amount of powder into either the 45 Colt, 44-40, or 38-40. Somewhere around 35 grains, depending on the brand of powder you use. Modern cases are more heavily built than the old balloon head cases and compression has to be excessive to stuff 40 grains of FFg into modern cases. But 35 grains does the job just fine. Because the amount of powder is the same with all three cartridges, the lighter bullets will achieve higher velocities.

The thinness of the neck that makes the Winchester cartridges seal the chamber so well, is also its achille's heel. They can be a bit fussy to reload, care has to be taken not to crumple the necks. They are not difficult to reload, one just has to be a bit more careful than with the more robust 45 Colt cases. And since the cases are tapered with the two Winchester cartridges, there are no carbide sizing dies available. Only conventional steel dies are availabel, and case lube is usually necessary to size the cases without getting them stuck in the sizing die. Again, not a big deal, but it does add one step to the loading process.

The only real shortcoming of the 38-40 cartridge over the 44-40 is components like bullets and brass are usually a bit more difficult to find than the components for 44-40. And guns chambered for it seem to be a bit scarcer too.
That's bad business! How long do you think I'd stay in operation if it cost me money every time I pulled a job? If he'd pay me that much to stop robbing him, I'd stop robbing him.

Ya probably inherited every penny ya got!

Deadguy

If you are currently shooting .45's there is no need to switch calibers to shoot BP.  Either stuff them full with BP and then put a 250-ish grain bullet on top, or anneal your brass, or both.  It works just fine that way.
Check out my website at www.bpstuffllc.com for blackpowder shooting supplies and custom finished and tuned cap and ball revolvers!

Cuts Crooked

Driftwoods post pretty much covered it!

And I have to agree with Deadguy, if yer alread shootin .45s then there's no real reason to change fer BP!
Warthog
Bold
Scorrs
Storm
Dark Lord of the Soot
Honorary member of the Mormon Posse
NCOWS #2250
SASS #36914
...work like you don't need the money, love like you've never been hurt, and dance like you do when nobody is watching..

Fox Creek Kid

Quote from: Cuts Crooked on August 06, 2009, 02:00:50 PM
Driftwoods post pretty much covered it!

And I have to agree with Deadguy, if yer alread shootin .45s then there's no real reason to change fer BP!

It is an unwritten rule in CAS that only the smartest & most handsome are allowed to use a .44.  ;)

Cuts Crooked

Quote from: Fox Creek Kid on August 06, 2009, 03:38:11 PM
It is an unwritten rule in CAS that only the smartest & most handsome are allowed to use a .44.  ;)

And every rule has it's exception! :-* :D ;D :D
Warthog
Bold
Scorrs
Storm
Dark Lord of the Soot
Honorary member of the Mormon Posse
NCOWS #2250
SASS #36914
...work like you don't need the money, love like you've never been hurt, and dance like you do when nobody is watching..

Arizona Trooper

One other tidbit. While 44-40s far outnumber 38-40s in Winchesters (and Whitney Kennedy and Colt Burgess). Marlins for some reason were about evenly split. 44-40 is really 42 caliber, and 38-40 is actually 40 caliber. Go figure.   

Dick Dastardly

But, if you need more guns, get some 44s.  I like the 44 Magnum caliber.  It's the sleeper in the black powder lineup.  Many times 44 Magnum guns sell for a LOT less than 44-40s, even though in many cases the guns are much stronger and better built.

Oh heck, I just happen to like the "44 Extra Long Russian". . . .

DD-DLoS
Avid Ballistician in Holy Black
Riverboat Gambler and Wild Side Rambler
Gunfighter Ordinar
Purveyor of Big Lube supplies

Pinto Jim

shhhh, of course its just about buying more guns but this way I can say after dilligent research I have decided I need to go shopping for a couple new shooters.

Fairshake

Well now Dick, Why are you steering the pard to a round that don't have a thing to do with the WEST. Your 38-40 is a real caliber for sure but you have to look hard for the brass and it will break the bank. You also will if you shoot long enough attend a lost brass match and that hurts to leave that money and hard to find brass on the ground. Stick with what you have. The 45 Colt will work fine, you can shoot Schofield brass in your revolvers and load a full case of 2F in your rifle brass behind a 200 gr bullet and have all the fun you want. There is a lot of bad info about shooting the 45. Load that case full and you will not see any problem other than having to wait at times for the smoke to clear so that you can keep shooting. Later David
Deadwood Marshal  Border Vigilante SASS 81802                                                                         WARTHOG                                                                   NRA                                                                            BOLD So that His place shall never be with those cold and Timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat

Mako

Quote from: Cuts Crooked on August 06, 2009, 04:12:12 PM
And every rule has it's exception! :-* :D ;D :D
And every rule has it's exception! :-* :D ;D :D
[/quote]
That's strange, I consider FCK to be quite manly and very intelligent...

~Mako
A brace of 1860s, a Yellowboy Saddle Rifle and a '78 Pattern Colt Scattergun
MCA, MCIA, MOAA, MCL, SMAS, ASME, SAME, BMES

Mako

Quote from: Driftwood Johnson on August 06, 2009, 11:10:47 AM
Howdy

...You are going to hear a lot of guff about the 44-40 and 38-40 being superior Black Powder cartridges because of the bottleneck case, which helps seal the chamber of a rifle better than the straight cased 45 Colt cartridge. This is not true. The superior chamber sealing properties of the two Winchester cartridge are due to the very thin brass at the necks, only about .007 thick, vs about .012 thick at the neck for 45 Colt. High pressure gas has no problems going around corners, and the taper on the 44-40 is so slight that it can barely be called a bottleneck. It is all about the thinness of the brass...

Driftwood,
I agree with you to a point about the wall thickness.  But, bottleneck cases do create a tortuous path for the gases to get around.  As long as there is enough pressure to cause it to obturate it will always seal better than a straight walled case.  And a true straight walled case will always seal better than a tapered case.
My .44 WCF cases have an average brass thickness of .006" and my .44 Russians run .012" and my  Specials run .0105".  I was trying to get my .44 Russians to seal in a '66 Carbine and I even tried reaming the inside of the case to as thin as .005" about .5" deep into the case.   I had Forrester make a .439 internal neck reamer for me (for too much money) and it ended up being .437.  Then had another one ground down to fit my Forrester base from a .441 chucking reamer.

I can report a .44 Russian case with a .0055" thick wall will not fully seal with a very compressed FFFg load.  The same is true for the .44 Special.  I even annealed the cases after reaming and they still don't seal like a .44 WCF.  I was putting 27+ grains of FFFg in  .44 Spl case so I decided to try a .44WCF with 27 grains and Grits on top as a control.  This load has absolutely no blowback beyond the neck area.  If you looked at the neck after a couple of days from being shot you would see the discoloration at the mouth and back to the shoulder.  The area below the shoulder remained relatively clean if they weren't thrown in a container with a bunch of other shot brass.  I have never chronographed a 27gr load from a .44WCF but a 25 grain load is about 50fps slower than a full but not smash loaded case in a .44 Spl. 

So what have I learned from this? I can't say unequivocally that the .44 Spls I modified  had the same clearance as the .44WCF, but I didn't size either case and used a Lee Factory Crimp die for both cartridges. I would assume the thin walled  .44 Spl case would be pretty close to the clearance of the .44WCF.  I went and looked for a case a minute ago, I'm not sure where I put them, I should have some loaded rounds left. I wanted to measure the OD of the thin walled un-sized case.

On a historical perspective when the British got away from the .577 Snider round and adopted the .450/577 one of the reasons cited was "cleanliness."  The bottlenecked cartridges left less fouling in the chamber and in breach areas.  Many of the British ordnance officers still wanted the bigger bullet (it seems they always do) but they had to agree the bigger bottleneck on the 450/579 assured more reliable operation.

They actually included the .45-70 in the trials beginning in 1879 that lead to the adoption of the Martin-Henry in 450/577.  The report was that straight walled cases were not suitable for military cartridges in hostile environments.  The problems with Springfield '73s and extraction due to fouled chambers was also cited.  I know a lot of the problems with the Springfields were due to the internally primed copper cases, I have several example of those in my collection.  But it should be noted the British had the same cartridge technology and didn't experience the same problem with the Sniders or the Martin-Henrys.

Does that mean .45-70s are bad?  Nope, just reporting the British arsenal trials experience.

~Mako
A brace of 1860s, a Yellowboy Saddle Rifle and a '78 Pattern Colt Scattergun
MCA, MCIA, MOAA, MCL, SMAS, ASME, SAME, BMES

Fox Creek Kid

Quote from: Mako on August 06, 2009, 08:49:27 PM...and used a Lee Factory Crimp die for both cartridges...

The 44-40 Lee FCD uses a collet style crimp not unlike what was called a "step" crimp at one time, whereas the Lee FCD for the .44 Mag./Spcl./Russian uses a carbide sizing ring. I never resize 44-40 cases. I merely deprime by hand, tumble, insert new primers and slightly bell. I use the seating/crimp die to only seat the bullet to correct depth and then use the FCD to apply a final crimp. It never touches the case body on mine to the best of my knowledge. They are true fire formed cases and as such I get no blowback. My point being that the two FCD's are entirely different in their approach. Correct?

Mako

Quote from: Fox Creek Kid on August 06, 2009, 10:20:03 PM
The 44-40 Lee FCD uses a collet style crimp not unlike what was called a "step" crimp at one time, whereas the Lee FCD for the .44 Mag./Spcl./Russian uses a carbide sizing ring. I never resize 44-40 cases. I merely deprime by hand, tumble, insert new primers and slightly bell. I use the seating/crimp die to only seat the bullet to correct depth and then use the FCD to apply a final crimp. It never touches the case body on mine to the best of my knowledge. They are true fire formed cases and as such I get no blowback. My point being that the two FCD's are entirely different in their approach. Correct?

FCK,
Nope I modified the straight walled die by pushing the ring out.  That took some doing it was shrunk fit in.   I left the die in the tooling head and took all of the top pieces out then I used a steel rod that was more or less the same diameter as the sliding "collet" Lee has in the die.  I then pushed it out using the rod and a hydraulic arbor press.  I have a second unmodified one I ordered because Lee had two die sets listed.  They are exactly the same.  At least the .44spl/.44mag and the .44spl/.44 Russian I ended up with.  And, the .44 Russian is too short to use with a Dillon shell plate.  So I shortened them both, doesn't hurt the longer cartridges and I was already set up.

I barely resize my .44 Russians or .44 Spl brass anymore and just crimp the bullets.  The bullets sit on top of the powder and if I wasn't using a high compression I could get away with no resizing.  If I don't resize it pushes back up after compression.  I might be resizing the top 1/8" of the case.  I tried a load that had only about .05" compression with no sizing and it didn't make any difference I could tell .  I barely "bell" the mouth to keep the neck snug on the bullet.


~Mako
A brace of 1860s, a Yellowboy Saddle Rifle and a '78 Pattern Colt Scattergun
MCA, MCIA, MOAA, MCL, SMAS, ASME, SAME, BMES

August

Around here, the 38-40 is more popular than the 44-40 with CAS shooters. 

I was faced with this decision about two years ago.  I chose the 38-40.

Mike Venturino had a wonderful article about the 38 WCF in Rifle magazine a few months back.  In it, he opined that the introduction of the cartridge was pure marketing on Winchester's part.  He observes that he can see no functional advantage to the 38wcf as compared to the 44wcf.  Marketing, pure and simple.  Winchester introduced the new cartridge to generate more interest in their guns is Mike's conclusion.

I'm sure that I'm not qualified to change the ink-jet cartridge on Mike's printer, but I'll offer a different point of view.

The 44wcf and the '73 were developed as a unit -- the gun and cartridge were a complete system wherein each worked best with the other.  The advantages of this 'new' system were very important to the success of the rifle.  First, the bottle neck cartridge sealed the chamber from gas blow-back into the operating mechanism.  Second, the bottle neck cartridge made the chambering of a new round very smooth and efficient -- the size of the bullet is much less than the size of the hole at the breech of the barrel.  Think of the chamber as a funnel that catches the cartridge as it is shoved forward, off the carrier, by the bolt.  This funnel made the cycling of the action very smooth and permitted continued smooth operation of the rifle when it was canted.

Here's where I disagree with Mike.  Those two advantages -- sealing and cycling -- accrued by the use of a bottle neck cartridge are amplified by the design of the 38-40.  The angle of the neck is more acute for even better sealing and more positive cycling.  The 38wcf has definite mechanical advantages over the 44 wcf.  In fact, I suspect that Winchester's engineers continued the development of the system after the '73 was introduced and arrived at the 38wcf as a better combination for the rifle.  I think they would have introduced the rifle in this caliber originally had they taken more time with development.  Or, alternatively, this is the cartridge specification that engineers recommended from the beginning, with Marketing winning out with the selection of the 44 for establishing the new rifle with American shooters.  44 was the bore size inherited from the Henry and '66.  You know, too much change gets Americans riled up.

At any rate, there is a third advantage to the 38wcf, which is it uses less lead.  About 10% less.  So, every ninth bullet, you get a free one.  This, of course, also means the cartridge generates less recoil.  Recoil of these two cartridges is not an issue in the '73 rifle, but it is an important advantage to the 38wcf in pistols.

So, better sealing, smoother operation of rifle, and less recoil in pistols are the reasons why I chose the 38-40 over the 44 wcf.

The advantage of the 44-40 is that brass is considerably less expensive than the cases for the 38wcf.  A lost brass match hurts in this caliber.

Dick Dastardly

Ho Fairshake Pard,

Here I thought that the late great Elmer Keith was West. ;D ;D

Anyway, my experience has shown that the 1/8" longer case than the 44 Special has a LOT to recommend it as pertains to Cowboy Action shooting with Genuine Powder.  NO, it's not PC, but it is very good.

I was hoping to slip it in under the moniker of .44 ELR. . ;D

Now, when it comes to gun bargains the .44 Magnum (.44 ELR) is chambered in some very good, strong and reasonably priced lever guns and wheel guns.  Also, it has the added bonus of being built to withstand .44 Magnum SAAMI pressures.  Those are pressures that decommissioned a good number of .44 Spl S&W guns for Elmer Keith before he, S&W and Remington developed the model 29.  Then, along came Bill Ruger, soon to be followed by Browning and others.  So, with a .44 ELR (.44 Magnum) you not only have a fine SASS gun, you also have a fine big game gun.  No, not moose, but pretty big game. . .

DD-DLoS 
Avid Ballistician in Holy Black
Riverboat Gambler and Wild Side Rambler
Gunfighter Ordinar
Purveyor of Big Lube supplies

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