45 caliber OpenTop 1871-2 barrel problem

[Flint]

Are the calibers interchangable?  Yes.  Are they "drop-in"?  No.  They can be close.  I have two 44 Opentops and when I got new (different length) barrels, and later bought barrels and cylinders  for 38 and 45 Schofield, I fit the barrels to the frame they fit the closest on.  The fit was mostly the arbor to barrel interface, I had to polish a few barrel arbor holes to get them to fit without a hammer.

Also, the headspace must be checked.  When I first fit the 45 Schofield I made the mistake of fitting the gas ring first, and I had enough excess headspace to make firing unreliable.  I had to go back and adjust the height of the rachet teeth to get the proper headspace, then stretch the gas ring to correct the endshake.

If you recalibrate, fit the headspace first, then the overall length.

It also helps to buy some spare wedges and screws, and use/fit the closest to right.  I tried to stamp the serial number into one, but the wedge is as hard as the number stamp.  Just keep the barrels and wedges together as a set.

I haven't had a 45 barrel crack, but I haven't shot them in that caliber much, maybe 3 matches.  I shoot them as 44's mostly, one is 44 Special and the other is 44 Colt, and I shoot them with 44 Russian ammo.

I haven't shot them as 38's much either, as the 44 balances much better.

You might want to time-share the ejector assembly too, they are expensive when you add it all up.

[Coffinmaker]

As an add-on to Flint's suggestions, you must absolutely set the head space first.  Second, it to check and fix the Barrel to Arbor fit.  The hole in the barrel for the arbor WILL be drilled too deep.  Once the head space is correct, and the barrel does not slide back on the arbor past the front edge of the frame, set end shake.  At that point you can whack the wedge home smartly and the gun will set up tight with the proper clearances.

I shoot all three calibers on my open top frames and have not had a barrel split (yet) and I shoot them a lot in all calibers.  The .44 barrels/cylinders are shot with .44 Russian cases along with .44 Russian in my '66.  Darn near period perfect.  Gotta love it.

I shoot the .45s with .45 Squirt ammo, darn near the same as the .44 Russian, and shoot them thru my Henrys.  Another near period perfect set up.  Way fun to stuff your Henry with 17+ rounds and fire away.

The .38s are jam and fudge.  Real fun and easy to load for, with a '66 rifle.

The most common failure with .45s in the Open Top is spitting the REALLY THIN piece of metal out of the bottom of the locking bolt slots in the cylinders.  That happens a lot.  The guns still work OK that way, just looks funny to have brass showing, or daylight showing if the gun is empty.  I have also seen any number of original Colt conversions in .44 that spit out the bottom of the locking bolt slot.

Really though, go ahead and shoot your .45s.  I do.  A lot.  Since the gun is so versatile, consider adding calibers.  Nothing I have picked up points and balances as well as an Open Top or a '51 Navy.  The ejector assemblies are expensive, so do plan to time share them.  They only take a minute to swap around and will save you a bunch of bucks.

Coffinmaker

[rifle]

I've talked with a gun savy Pard that seems to reason that dead soft lead bullets and black powder fired in the Open Tops and Richards mason's would steer you clear of the barrel cracking at the forcing cone.
Sounds reasonable and I'll try it on the 45 RM I have and the 44 RM I have and the 44 OT I have left that I found a barrel for and my other 44 RM. Yes, the 44 OT had a cracked barrel when I bought it. Supposedly it was new...looked new...and cracked the barrel first few shots fired by the first owner. I've fired it with smokeless and hard cast bullets. Didn't break the forcing cone at the breech of the barrel. Fired about a hundred rounds I think.
Anyway I cracked the forcing cone on my other 45 Scholfield OT since I last posted here. I used mid way Cowboy loads,smokeless naturally since the load came from the Accurate Powder loading manual and the powder was S1000. Good powder. Meters thru the powder measure real nice.
Anyway I referred to the fact the 44's crack also in an above post I think. I'd say it again since I bought an OT with a cracked barrel and it was 44 cal.  44 Special chambers. I cant really remember if I fired 44 Specials or 44 Colts thru it. Anyway 44's crack too.
My gun savy friend,Smoking Gun, has the opinion that soft lead bullets ands blackpowder loaded cartridges should be safe from barrels cracking. I ain't so sure but....what else is there to try? Cowboy competition loads like a low pressure 44 Russian load or the 45 short cases Anderondack JACK SELLS?
I figure Uberti should offer more barrels since the barrels are difficult to get from the parts suppliers. I would think Ubeti would be aware of the problem and fix it. Fix it? Yes very easily.
Fix the Uberti's like the ASM Richards conversions are designed in the cylinder bushing area and the forcing cone exterior.
The Ubertis could be made like that by welding the milled thin area of the guns people have and makong the ASM type cylinder bushing. I don't know if it would be good to weld on the exterior of the forcing cone of a barrel though to fill in the milled thin area. I should ask a knowledgable welder.
Anyway the ASM Richards(I imagine the ASM Open Top had the non integral cylinder bushing too but am not sure) has a cylinder bushing not integral with the cylinder like the Uberti's OP and RM's. The OT originals having the integral cylinder bushing and the RM's and R's didn't have it. Sorry for the abbreviations. Richards and Richards Mason and Open Tops.   
The ASM ctlinder bushing isn't a complete cylindrical shape since the top portion of the bushing is milled away so it fits under the barrel without milling the exterior of the forcing cone too thin. The ASM cylinder bushing doesn't turn with the cylinder because of that. The only part of the ASM bushing that is whole is the small part on the cylinder side of the bushing that is inside a rebate in the front of the cylinder....so one part of the bushing is left un-milled. The arbor is slightly exposed where the bushing is milled narturally. That may cause problems with black powder fouling if you use the Holy Black. Lube pills or grese cookies or a "Big Lube Bullet" would solve that good enough.
Anyway if the Uberti's had a cylinder bushing design like the ASM Richards revolvers so the breech end of the barrel wasn't milled thin underneath the problem would be solved. Solved without re-designing the whole dimensions of the gun to allow for more room to let an integral cylinder bushing lay under the barrel without milling the barrel.....to leave the forcing cone exterior alone.
The original Open Tops had the integral cylinder bushing. I don't know if they were milled away under the barrels forcing cone exterior. Anybody? I'll have to see if I can find apic in my book.
Anywhooooo......I guess I'll find barrels for my Open Top 45's to replace the broken ones and use soft lead and black powder since I like standard loads to fire and that would be standard in a fashion.
What bothers me is the Open Tops and the Richards Masons are warranted for use of commercially available ammo in the right caliber. That would mean smokeless powder and hard bullets and even in some cases jacketed bullets. That would mean a failure of materials or workmanship so the warranty should cover a craked barrel. I don't know how long the warranty is good for. My first cracked barrelin the 45 Open Top took "a lot" of rounds fired in a course of about 12 years. The warranty would be up since it isn't a "life time "warranty.
I've never heard of a standard cap&baller revolver that has been converted by an R&D or Kirst conversion kit crack a barrel. Maybe the softer steel in the cap&ballers is a plus in that conversion scenario? I have a really old Navy Colt made by ASM that has a cheapy backplate by Legal Defender and a cylinder made by R&D in it. The original cylinder in the "Legal Defender" kit had cylinder notches too shallow. The Legal Defender kit for Navies was $49.95 back then. Drill two holes for the backplate and slap the cylinder in and fire 38S&W's thru an oversize bore.   ha ha ha  I had my Navy barrel sleeved to 38 size  at .357 inch  with a 38 type rifling twist. Real accurate and...I've fired everything from squip loads to upper end 38 Special (not +P though)loads thru it(38 special cylinder on it now) and never cracked the cheapy ASM cap&baller barrel with that sleeve in it. I've fired jacketed bullets and hard cast and soft lead and wheel weight alloy bullets out of it too ....and mostly all smokeless powder but a lot of blackpowder loads too. The blackpowder loads used soft lead but sometimes hardcast bullets too.
The Uberti barrel problem should be fixed by the manufacturer. Maybe just a better grade of ordanance grade steel for the barrels and leave the design as is?

[Montana Slim]

Rifle, Those theories at least seem reasonable. If so, I'm in good shape since I cast my own bullets (fairly soft alloy) and only use genuine gunpowder in my collection of .44s.

Regards,
Slim

[rifle]

Sound wisdom Slim. Sound wisdom.

[Springfield Slim]

I have been shooting my 45 Schofield Open Tops twice a month for  3 years now with no problems. I just wish they made them in 44-40.  Anybody out there want to sell your barrels and cylinders cheap so you can buy 44's, I'm right here. Of course I only shoot BP.

[rifle]

I'd be looking for some 45 barrels too. My first 45 OT took about 12 years to split. The second one took about a hundred cartridges or somethin like that. One shooting session.
I was pondering tryin "balls" in the 45's. Balls or short bullets made of pure lead. Velosities arounf 750fps. with smokeless to rty and see what happens.
In the end I imagine it'll be pure lead and "Holy Black" fer the 1872 Open Tops in my leather. The "black" will give more "whomp" and FPS with less pressure.
Anyway......I'm looking fer barrels. The parts houses don't seem to be able to get me any.
Maybe...I'll have to go "Kirst Konverter" in an 1860 Colt Army percussion so I can have a 45 size without the barrels SPLITTING. Pure lead short bullets naturally but not nessesarily black powder for all cartridges.
I'd like to find one of those 1872 Open Tops San Marcos put out. Not many around I guess. Never seen any fer sale.Never seen any of the pietta ones neither. They made them a short while as did San Marcos. Wonder why they quit making them?

[Fox Creek Kid]

Wayne, ASM made a ´72 OT. I had one & a bigger POS could not be found. It had a removeable gas ring that was an even bigger POS. Pietta never made  a ´72 OT. The first Cimarron Uberti ´72 OT´s were imported in ´99. Here´s mine from that batch with over 10,000 BP rounds downrange. It´s a two digit serial no.

[rifle]

Fox Creek, that's one nice gun there in the pic. Must be a doozie. I like the grips especially. I tried to get some of those from Buffalo Bros. but they didn't fit my Centaure 1860 Colt well enough. I thought they were kinda flat or slab sided. Yours like that? Kinda flat? Maybe all the different "fits" for different guns aren't all flat slab sided feeling. How's yours?
Anyway I really like that gun. What caliber? 44? I got a barrel for a forty four OT I bought "with" a cracked barrel. Cracked first time out supposedly. Got returned and I bought it "as is". I've fired hundreds of rounds thru the new barrel and it's still fine. Smokeless and hardcast and wheel weight type alloy bullets. The rest of the bullets will be pure lead so it'll last maybe. I like it. Makes me feel like Annie Oakley since it shoots so well. Now.......no funny remarks about me feelin like Annie Oakley Bud. 

One things for sure....you have a sense of humor Fox Creek Kid.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Wayne, this OT was originally an Army frame, but it´s had a Navy BS fitted and the TG was cut down at the rear to fit the BS. They are Buffalo Bros. grips but only the right has a Mexican eagle as the left one is sanded off. For a right handed shooter this gives a far better grip IMO. The nickel is aftermarket and that´s an Uberti lanyard ring on the butt (which I thought was a nice Southwestern Period touch) that I fitted.

[RRio]

I'm getting ready to buy a '71 OT in .45 Colt. Has the problem with the forcing cone splitting cleared up, or is it still a chronic problem?

[Abilene]

no worries

[Jake C]

no worries

As in it's not a problem? I ask only because I'm also kind of eying one of the Open Tops in .45 or .44.

[Abilene]

Haven't heard of a split in a long time.

[Octagonal Barrel]

As an add-on to Flint's suggestions, you must absolutely set the head space first.  Second, it to check and fix the Barrel to Arbor fit.  The hole in the barrel for the arbor WILL be drilled too deep.  Once the head space is correct, and the barrel does not slide back on the arbor past the front edge of the frame, set end shake.  At that point you can whack the wedge home smartly and the gun will set up tight with the proper clearances.
Coffinmaker

I appreciate all these comments since I've been eyeing '72's or Richards type II's myself.  Coffinmaker, you mentioned above you had to to a lot of work to get the type II's running well.  Is Flint's list plus your comment here the complete task list, or were there more things you had to do to get them going?

[Jake C]

Haven't heard of a split in a long time.

Ah okay, thanks for the answer, much appreciated 

[RRio]

no worries

Thanks very much!!

[Cinco Peso]

I see the initial comments on this topic are going back 4-5 years, are the current OT being offer by Taylor or Cimarron in 45 C less prone to the problem?

[Jake C]

I see the initial comments on this topic are going back 4-5 years, are the current OT being offer by Taylor or Cimarron in 45 C less prone to the problem?

I asked this same question on this thread just a short time ago. I was told that that particular issue hadn't been seen in a while.

[Cinco Peso]

I asked this same question on this thread just a short time ago. I was told that that particular issue hadn't been seen in a while.

Thank you.