45 caliber OpenTop 1871-2 barrel problem

[rifle]

I need two barrels for 45 cal. Open Tops. One gun is new(a cylinder or two fired in it) and one used a good bit.
Both guns have cracked barrels. The new I bought with the bad barrel and the other I've fired thousands of rounds thru.
The barrels are cracked where the milled area on the bottom of the forcing cone gets the crack.
The area is thin on 45 cals. due to the caliber...but due to milling to get the barrels arbor bushing in the barrels arbor hole. The milling for the bushing to go in makes the forcing cone area too thin it seems.
The 44's and the 38's are thicker in the area bwelow the forcing cone due to smaller caliber. The 45's are the ones that crack I guess.
I'd say the Italians know the barrels crack. They have to have been made aware of it. It would be a simple fix to improve the design defect. Leave the bushing out of the barrels arbor hole so the area doesn't have to be milled too thin.
Anyway I need a coupla 45cal. barrels for the Open Top 1871-2 Colt Uberti's. I always like the long barrels but I'd take what I could get ifin anyone has any or knows where I might find some. That older 45 Open Top that cracked is a favorite of mine. Always shot real straight and did it all the time.
I figure there's been so many Open Tops sold here in the US that somebody has some parts new or used. There has to be some partsa guns somewhere that were used and worn and scraped out for parts maybe because the arbor got too loose or whatever.
I'd like to buy old Open Tops that are used-abused and religated to the parts box. I like to fix up the really bad junkers that have good rifling left in the barrels.
I may try welding the cracked barrels from underneath the forcing cone and see if I can get penetration up into the crack where it's seen in the forcing cone. One barrel cracked far enough to get under the arbor busing. I will have a hell of a time getting that out to weld from under the forcing cone. Bummer. Those bushings probably are pressed in. Crap...just dealt with that on the axles of the 2N Ford antique tractor I'm restoring. Shrink fit retaining collar and pressed on bearings and stuff like that. Now I'll go from that to a pressed in bushing in a Uberti barrel.
Anyway....anyone know where I can get 45 caliber Open Top Barrels?

[Roscoe Coles]

Easy as pie, just go to the Cimarron Firearms website, go to the parts page, look up the gun and order the barrels.  $105 each plus shipping.  If you want to change calibers now would be the time so you could go to the 44 and just buy a new cylinder at the same time.  Hope that helps.

[rifle]

Roscoe, that does help....ifin they have any barrels. They get a shipment in from Italy? I'll call.
Going to 44 would alleviate the cracked forcing cone problem since the 44's are thicker there. Thanks for the idea.

[Roscoe Coles]

I have had good luck with getting parts from Cimarron but as you say, they, like everyone else, only have the parts when they have them.  There is no way around that.  I have also had good luck getting stuff from Taylors' but I don't know if they carry the opentop. 

I'm interested in getting some different barrels and cylinders for my 45 opentops as well.  I'd also like to get a 45 barrel to cut down like Dallas Stoudenmire's.

Just out of curiosity, have you spoken to the importers about your cracked barrels?  That would seem to be a defect in manufacturing which they should cover under warranty.  Its worth a try.  Course, they have to have the barrels in stock as well.

[Mako]

I have had good luck with getting parts from Cimarron but as you say, they, like everyone else, only have the parts when they have them.  There is no way around that.  I have also had good luck getting stuff from Taylors' but I don't know if they carry the opentop. 

I'm interested in getting some different barrels and cylinders for my 45 opentops as well.  I'd also like to get a 45 barrel to cut down like Dallas Stoudenmire's.

Just out of curiosity, have you spoken to the importers about your cracked barrels?  That would seem to be a defect in manufacturing which they should cover under warranty.  Its worth a try.  Course, they have to have the barrels in stock as well.

Roscoe,
The defect is not in the manufacturing but in the thought process that put that arrangement on an Open Top frame.  It absolutely amazes me that Uberti decided that .45 was a good idea on any of the "open top" style frames whether it be an 1872, Transition Model or R&M conversion.  I surprised we don't hear more reports of cracked barrel extensions.

Before I go any further I expect I will insult a few of you with my comments that will follow, to each of you I apologize in advance.  A lot of people got all "tingly legged" at the prospect of those pistols in a .45 caliber cartridge, and it doesn't make a bit of difference if it is a .45 Colt or Schofield.  You could be shooting the wimpiest loads in  .45 Cowboy Special Brass and still crack that area.  The frames, cylinders and barrels  pistols were designed for .44 caliber balls or .44 Rimfires.  Even bumping the frame and cylinder size a bit doesn't totally alleviate the problem, if they scaled accordingly it would look totally weird instead of just a bit wrong.

I just measured one of my .44 Caliber Uberti Transition Models in that cut and it is only .050" thick there.  So if it was a .45 take away another .011" (.022 overall) and you get a cross section of .039"!!  I measured that same region on a 1st generation SAA Colt that was designed for a .45 caliber bullet and it measures .08".  Also note the 1873 doesn't have that stress raising clearance cut, it doesn't need one it was designed for the larger cartridge.  So the Uberti design is almost insane.  I measured a Uberti  1860 .44 and it has .048" of thickness.  So anyone who thought the .45 on any of the Uberti "open top" style frames was just what you needed I hope you will never experience what Rifle has seen.

I'm sorry I seem so grouchy about it, but I don't like the scaled up Uberti  frames they feel and look wrong.  I waited years for my Transition Models in .44 caliber and they just look wrong to me and don't fit my leather.   I'm probably going to have to make myself my own conversions.  So I apologize to anyone with a .45 caliber open top style Colt clone, I hope your pistols serve you well.

Rifle, what is the cylinder diameter of those .45s?

Regards,
Mako

[Fox Creek Kid]

Mako, I agree 100% and Rifle & I have discussed this via ph. before. I have a buddy who got one of the first '72 OT's in .45 Schofield and he promptly sent it back as the chamber walls are wafer thin. But hey, everyone knows that 44-40 is such a SOB to handload (Note: SARCASM here from a 44-40 shooter) and heaven forbid if someone had to take all of 5 mins. or less to change dies. 

[Coffinmaker]

Mako & FCK,

Oh Man what a PLUS 1!!  I've be telling and yelling for several years on this and the "other" wire that I do not, can not and will not recommend the .45 in ANY of the Open Top guns.  As so eloquently put previously, it's KNUTZ!!
I keep getting "there proofed so it OK" for answers and it's NOT OK.  The chamber wall thickness just isn't there.  The locking bolt slots are too shallow and I have had my customers return Open Tops to Cimarron because the cylinder spit the thin little bit of metal left in the bottom of the locking bolt slot out with the first few rounds of .45 fired, even at reduced cowboy load pressure.
Same applies to the back of the barrel.  It's just too thin walled in .45
I do agree, instead of welding up cracked .45 barrels, or even replacing them, I would personally recommend the cylinders as pencil holders and barrels as paper weights.  There may be a bit of a wait for parts, but switch the guns to .44 cylinders and barrels.  There is just more metal where it counts.  Not to mention, the Open Top was first conceived as a .44 caliber.  There was a reason Colt never chambered the Open Top in .45 and Colt NEVER converted any of the open top BP guns to cartridge  .45s.  There may have been other failings at Colt, but stupidity wasn't one of them.

Hey Mako,
I waited long and thought hard before I sprung for a pair of Richards Type IIs.  Both guns have been incredible headaches to get running right.  They are the closest thing available at reasonable cost so in their case, close counts, but NOT in .45 cartridge.  Mine are .44s and they are fun now that they are running, but getting here was a struggle.  Out of the Box, folks will be disappointed.

Coffinmaker

[rifle]

I agree with you Pards on the defected design of the OpenTop 1872 and the Richards Mason conversion 45's. Thing is.....if they didn't make the under side of the forcing cone part of the barrel extra thin for that bushing in the arbor hole of the barrel the barrels probably wouldn't crack. It's that extra they take off to get the bushing in the arbor hole. I don't understand the reasoning for the bushing. Originals had them? I'd guess not.
Mako...what diameter do you want for the chambers of the 45's? Chamber part(where the case sits) or cylinder throat part of the chamber?
I have to believe that the Italians know the barrels crack on the 45's. Why don't they remedy that by leaving the arbor hole bushing out of the design? I mean....don't they test the dang things before they put them in production?
I never knw the Open Tops were over size. I'd read the cylinder on the Richards Masons was oversized for the 45's. That mean the cylindrs are oversized on the 44's too? Heck I'd like that. I never handles an original Open Top 1872.
I's guess a machinist could make his own cylinders and conversion gated back plates if they had a mill and a rotary table and could get the holes and nortches in the right place and also the ratchets at the rear. I'd wish to have a lathe to make the stock piece the right diameter first off. I have no lathe.
Thing is....a Pard could make a conversion with a stock cap&baller but...the steel would be softer in the frame than a gun from Uberti that is "Cartridge" right out of the factory right? Real ordanance grade steel right? Right. I dream alot too.
Anyway....I'd wish to make my own cylinders for conversions and then line bore the chambers ot the barrel . Make a target grade Open Top.  ha ha ha  Why not?
Anyway.....wouldn't the Italians worry about liability ifin those 45 barrels cracked and spit a chunk of barrel at someones face or head?
Whatever happened to the Pietta Open Top that was on the market for awhile when the San Marcos was on the market?
You knmow....there were some really cool guns back in the day and no one replicates them. Those Belgian guns and those Manhattans and the Coopers and those double action English cap&ballers and cartridge revolvers. I've seen some pictures of some other guns besides Colt and Remington. Some are just plain arse cool. Wish they would replicate some of the others. Like Pietta id good enough to replicate the Starr and the LeMatt.  I like the Manhattans or the Coopers (whichever it is)that look like a cross between the Colt and the Remington. I think it was the Cooper that had that thin spring steel wrapped around on the recoil shield that kept the caps from catching on anything. The hammer struck it so it struck the percussion caps. Bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang...all six shots without the fear of caps hangin the gun up. You know like a Remington does because of it's thought out design. Like the Rodgers and Spencer also. And the Starr too.And other cap&ballers. Not the Colts though.
No one of the enterprising people that work Pards guns make a capguard  like the Coopers that were authentic to the time and worked. I've though about doing it but.....wonder.....how a thin piece of spring steel being hit by the hammer so it hits the caps would hold up? You Pards know what I'm referring to right? Anyone know about the Coopers original to the time cap guard? Hope it's the Coopers that had that. Maybe it was the Manhattans.
Ladt thing said....I wouldn't recommend a 45 Open Top or Richards Mason to anyone.
I loaded mine the last time out with 6gr. TiteGroup and a 200gr. bullet that was ...................hardcast  lead. .  Man that dang gun was accurate too. Pleasure to shoot. Shot high though. Get used to it after awhile. Like the Pards back in the day had to get used to them or change out the front sight.

[Flint]

The original Colt opentop 1871/72 did have the gas ring, it was needed to control headspace.  I was under the impression that the original 44 cartridge was a heel based 44, which would indicate it has a 45 caliber bore.  The cartridge was a 44 Henry, basically, with much less powder than a 45 Colt, or Schofield.

Are the cracked forcing cone extensions a result of firing black powder or smokeless?

Not raising the centerline of the cylinder as Uberti did would result in a gun like ASM made, with a waterline surface so thin the bolt barely works.

[Tio Sam]

Rifle,
     I was looking for parts for my ASM .44 Colt Navy and Traditions referred me to VTI Gunparts.  It turns out that
they carry a large selection of parts for several different brands (they claim to be the largest source of Uberti parts in
the U.S.)  Here is a link to their page for the Open Top that shows three different barrel lengths:

http://www.vtigunparts.com/store/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=29&cat=Uberti+Open+Top

Take care,

Tio Sam

[Roscoe Coles]

Well you guys go me thinking.  I have had a pair of .45 Schofields for more than 8 years and never had any trouble.  Worked fine right out of the box and I have not noticed any splits.  I don't shoot heavy loads in thee guns and I was quite surprised when they offered these guns were offered in 45 Colt.

I just measured the thickness of the barrel at the notch and it is in fact .038, which seem pretty thin.  One thing I noticed though is that the forcing cone was quite rough and abrupt.  I wonder if cutting a good 11 degree forcing cone would help things, not to open the forcing cone up any larger just to smooth the transition. 

I have been looking to get some 38 barrels and cylinders for these guns to make a nice cased set but it sounds like I should get some 44s in addition to the 38s. 

[Mako]

Well you guys go me thinking.  I have had a pair of .45 Schofields for more than 8 years and never had any trouble.  Worked fine right out of the box and I have not noticed any splits.  I don't shoot heavy loads in thee guns and I was quite surprised when they offered these guns were offered in 45 Colt.

I just measured the thickness of the barrel at the notch and it is in fact .038, which seem pretty thin.  One thing I noticed though is that the forcing cone was quite rough and abrupt.  I wonder if cutting a good 11 degree forcing cone would help things, not to open the forcing cone up any larger just to smooth the transition. 

I have been looking to get some 38 barrels and cylinders for these guns to make a nice cased set but it sounds like I should get some 44s in addition to the 38s. 

This is what I wrote about what I suspected the thickness would be back on August 2nd.

...I just measured one of my .44 Caliber Uberti Transition Models in that cut and it is only .050" thick there.  So if it was a .45 take away another .011" (.022 overall) and you get a cross section of .039"!! 

Sounds like my extrapolation of .039" was off by .001", I guess I need to be more careful in my future calculations...

Is there anyone reading this that doesn't think .038" is insane?

Thanks for the confirmation Roscoe.

Regards,
Mako

[Rebel Dave]

Well thats it for me.... I'm taking my two .45 open tops to the local Police buy back program.

Dave C.

[Mako]

Well thats it for me.... I'm taking my two .45 open tops to the local Police buy back program.

Dave C.

Dave,
No need, I have my own "cash for clunkers" program...  Send them to me .

No offense intended, I hope they serve you well, but you can see how this thread started.  They are really too thin at that cut, Rifle isn't the only one who has seen this problem.

I shot Saturday with a friend of mine who shoots a pair of .45 Cal.  5 1/2" Open Tops.  He uses .45 Schofield brass and I didn't even bring up the fact it's not the case length that is the issue it's the material left at the throat.  .45 Colt is relatively low pressure when loaded for CAS, it really doesn't make any difference if you're shooting .45 Colt, .45 Schofield or .45 Cowboy Special Brass, it's the bullet squeezing through that forcing cone that is the issue.

If you put a strain gage on a barrel and then fire a bullet through it you will find the barrel has to get pretty large in cross-section before the bullet doesn't make a bulge as it passes through the bore.  It looks like a snake or an ostrich swallowing something.  It is this displacement that causes the problem, if there isn't enough cross-section to give the barrel the ultimate strength it needs it often "relieves itself."  Which means it cracks...The material used in the Uberti barrels isn't a high grade ordnance steel, it is sufficient for low pressure cowboy loads when the design isn't altered.  The .45 design didn't scale the barrel and it shows...

Regards,
Mako

[Virginia Gentleman]

So, I guess the play here is to shoot cowboy squibs through the guns and hope that they don't crack on you.  I just purchased mine and it makes me want to take it back and get a refund........

[Rebel Dave]

I quit shooting mine. I;m thinking of selling them both.

rebel dave

[Drmarc]

I too just purchased one in 45, guess I should have read a bit first....

I'm a little surprised they are still making these with this type of failure common knowledge.

[Biermeister]

Do the different caliber cylinders, .38 or .44 usually fit on a .45 frame, or does it require some fitting? Are the cylinders available or are they on back order? Have two .45 Open Tops. Love them but sounds like I need to get new cylinders in alternate caliber.

[Messerist]

Thanks for the great info on the Open Top.  My local gun store is looking for an OT for me right now and I told him to find me a .45 LC.  I think I will change that to a .44 now!  Thanks again for the heads up Gentlemen.

[Dirty Brass]

All this info makes me glad I just sold a .45 OT on GB. Maybe I better pull the RM .44 Spcl. off of there and hang on to it. I just didn't like the longer barrels.