Trooper** Side Match **

[Rowdy Fulcher]

Thinking about a side match where the shooter would use a Trapdoor Carbine and a single action Pistol .
The shooters would dress as a Trooper on Campaign . Have 2 or 3 stages to engage 5 pistol and 6 rifle .
And yes everything would be shot with black powder . I think this would be fun ,what your opinion .

                                                       

[Drydock]

That would be the GAF   

[Pancho Peacemaker]

I like it. 

My only worry:  if folks start shooting heavier .45-70 loads on a consistant basis, that might be hard on some main match rifle targets . . . especially any spring loaded or cantilever targets.

Pancho

[Rowdy Fulcher]

Pancho
Hopefully we can get people to use the Carbine load of 55 grains of black , but the targets will need to be back 50 yds . We can make this Fun and still do it Right .

[Drydock]

I've done extensive research and a great deal of shooting to determine the feasibility of using properly loaded Milspec cartridges on CAS style targets.  A standard steel target of proper material will not be harmed by a 405 grain lead bullet at CAS spec velocities, IE less than 1400 FPS.  "Bubba" targets cut from mild steel scrap can be dimpled, but proper commercial targets show no effects at all. 

Basicly, at BP velocities you will not hurt good material targets.  Just make sure they are well supported and properly hung.  I cannot reccomend the 500 grainer .45, the sectional density is too high for comfort.  A max of 405 grains for those rounds less than .501 in diameter, with an allowance for 480 grains for those rounds greater than 501, will insure a combonation of Mass and Sectional density that will not harm proper steel targets.

Requirements for using these calibers in CAS style comptition can be found in the "Battle Rifle Standards" thread of the Barracks.

[Patrick Henry Brown]

I'd vote for it -- so long as I could shoot a Sharps Carbine rather than the Trapdoor. I own the Sharps now. I would think that restricting the max load to 405 gr. projectiles and 55 gr. of FFG would be ok on the targets. Rowdy makes a point on the 50 yds. minimum. Anyway -- it sounds great to me.     

[Books OToole]

When Rowdy and I discussed this idea, the plan was to get some use out of the trap-doors that alot of NCOWS members own and don't get to shoot.

The first idea was '73 springfields or military Sharps.  I was leaning toward just the trap-doors. (Read - this is still in the developmental stage.)

Side arms would also be of military configuration.  1873 Colts, Schofields or Open-tops.

My suggestion would to encourage (not require) apporpriate uniforms & equipment.  This would be done by giving incentive-bunus points for: coat, hat, Mills-belt, etc.

Comments please.


Books

[Rowdy Fulcher]

Howdy Pards
This is for having fun with weapons that sit in the safe . We all love the carbines but never have a use for these guns until Deer season .As Books stated this is in the early stages , yes we want to make this Fun . But we also want to have people trying to put together a Trooper outfit . We have several members who are members of GAF and they will enjoy this .  This may be a way the 2 groups can work together .
 
As for persona's Troopers ,Scouts ??

[Patrick Henry Brown]

I still push for the Sharps as I own a military carbine. I would also include the 1875 Remington as they were used as well.

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

I like the idea......I don't have a trapdoor but another match is an incentive to come up with, either borrow or buy a rifle to shoot this match.

Books and Rowdy....I think I would also include the .44 Colt 1860 percussion revolver as it was issued too.

Bill

[Books OToole]

I don't think that the 1860 (percussion) over lapped with the 1873 Springfields.  But....

if we allow the Sharps........


Books

[John Smith]

I think the 56-50 Spencer would fit in.

[Patrick Henry Brown]

Books:

There is precedent for the Sharps. According to Buffalo Soldiers, 1866-91 by Ron Field, "By September 1871, the 10th Cavalry had 845 Sharps carbines in its inventory." According to what I've been able to find, 30,000 Sharps carbines were converted to the 50-70 cartridge and during the period from 1866-1873, most cavalry units were equiped with either the Sharps or the Spencer carbines. Also, some militia units were also equipped with the Sharps carbines beyond the 1873 date.

Gunsmoke and saddle leather by Charles G. Worman also records that according to ordinance returns of the 7th Cavalry dated June 30, 1876 ( just days after Custer's loss at Little Big Horn) there were still 14 .50 caliber Sharps carbines in the arsenal.

All this to say that certainly the Sharps Carbine was a fixture for a few years before, during and after the trapdoor was adopted. Sadly, most of the repros I know of are chambered for the 45-70 rather than the 50-70 -- although I understand that Garret did chamber some in 50-70 many years ago. My IAB Carbine is the 1866 Carbine Conversion, though chambered in 45-70. Wonder if it could be safely converted to 50-70?


Preacher Clint

[Patrick Henry Brown]

Only problem I see with the Spencer would be that Rowdy's original proposal seems to envision a side match utilizing a single shot rifle.

[Rowdy Fulcher]

Howdy Pards
To be honest I never even thought about the Spencer , Just thought about the trapdoor and the Sharps
Carbines . Never thought a Spencer would have a advantage in shooting competition until NOW

[Dr. Bob]

Ok on a regular stage where you shoot more than 10 rounds, and you have a reloading tube handy!   Especiall, load 14!  Course my Henry in 44 Russian will load 16. 

[Dusty Tagalon]

No reason to disallow the Spencer, single load it.

Brian

[Rowdy Fulcher]

Dusty
That would be the way to handle that . All rifles would be single loaded . On the pistol there is no reloads .

[James Hunt]

Perhaps if we defined a period for the match rather than look at picking this weapon or that weapon it would make more sense. If we go with an NCOWS period we have Allin conversions on one end and the Krag on the other. If we defined a period we could stick with what was issued - and of course everyone should do their best to uniform up in the correct period attire.

If you allowed scouts into the mix you could then go with the sharps (as they were issued a few years longer) or even an infantry rifle as many preferred that.

I am not sure that a Spencer is all that much of an advantage over a trapdoor or sharps if you are a fair hand at reloading the latter, holding several cartridges in your hand as you start. Move the target to 100 yds and I would think that the advantage would be minimal.

Not to drift off topic, but I have long wondered why we can not have a match where a longer range rife is used with a pistol.  As a buffalo hunter I have always wanted to use my .50 1 3/4 instead of an incorrect 66 in .45 colt during the main match. I wondered if there is a way to reasonably download the cartridge.

Many fights on the plains took place with large bore rifes and pistol, and a competition like this would be fun. I don't think a long rifle would have much of an advantage over a carbine even at 100 yards. We could get really creative. Start with 10 rds of rifle ammo and 10 rds of pistol.  Imagine a group of advancing bad guys. Start at the 100 yard line and engage 5 taargets, then move to the 50 yard line and engage five more. Whatever you missed you have to engage as pistol targets with one handgun at close range - even if it meant reloading. Shoot up your 20 rds without 10 dead bad guys and you are scored as dead. Sort of a reality stage. We could score winners, award prizes and then have a mock burial service and eulogies for those who "fell" in battle.

This would sure differentiate us from the .38 spc speed guys and make us very unique. It is all for fun anyway.

Didn;t mean to muddy the waters with the latter - just free association. The Cav impression is good - I'd have to be called out of buffalo camp as a reservist I guess and put on some Indian War duds and swap my Sharps for a springfield - but either that or a stage that allows use of a rifle at 50 - 100 yards and a pistol if necessary would be a great idea. Another plus for creative competition that those other guys don't have. I think it would be popular and great fun.

[Books OToole]

Okay;  lets get back to the orginal idea.

Which was:   Let's use trap-door Springfields in a side match.
We can't be all things to all people.

If you have a Sharps, Henry or Spencer;  You can't participate in a Trap-door Springfield match.

I not trying to belittle anyone or any weapon.

Let's keep it simple.


Books