Copper rivets and burrs

[Pappy Hayes]

Is there a way to make new copper rivits look old without turning them green? I am using them for the first time and I put some on one of my knife sheafs but they are too new looking.

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

Howdy Pappy

   I use Chuck Burrows method, and it works great, just lightly steel wool the rivet, then use a degreaser, say like gun scrubber or the like, you want the copper super clean, after that, dab a little Beachwood Casy's Super Blue on it, it doesn't matter if you get a little bit on the leather, this will turn the the copper a black, but will show little high lights of copper, in short order the rivet will look old and aged. The picture below shows the copper rivets that secure the buckle chaff to the belt, they were done this way, and have held up just fine. I've also used other cold bluing with good results too.

                                                Hope this helps

                                                tEN wOLVES  

[St. George]

This is similar to what Chuck does.

Use 'Liver of Sulphate' 'after' you've cleaned, scuffed and de-greased and you'll get 'black' rivets.

After you've done this - re-wash thoroughly and then you can install.

The handling will expose some copper highlights - but they'll dull over time..

This stuff smells exactly like you'd think - and it's fumes are highly corrosive to steel - so keep TIGHTLY capped and away from your other odds and ends.

You can buy this at jewelry supply houses and gem shops.

OR - just clean, scuff and de-grease and install and be patient - the rivets 'will' dull themselves over time as they're exposed.

Good Luck!

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Marshal Will Wingam]

I've used BC Super blue also. Chuck's method works well.

[Dave Cole]

If you don't want the darker colorbut still want it aged, you can do a light dip in Ferric Chloride(Radio Shack circuit board etchant), then wash with Windex.I usually then expose the copper to ammonia fumes which will discolor the copper to a nice patina.Dave

[St. George]

For that matter - so will the fumes from Latex paint - but that takes more effort than it's worth.

The key is to clean and lightly scuff the new surface a little bit, so as to make it receptive to whatever treatment you want to try.

Good Luck!

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

  Pappy here is a better picture of the copper rivets that I antiqued  using the method I discussed above, you can see the aged high lights it will produce, and give you the look you are after, this is also a safe and none smelly way of doing this.

                 Regards

               tEN wOLVES  

[Dave Cole]

For those interested in trying some different patina formulas, I found this site.Some interesting info.Dave

http://www.sciencecompany.com/patinas/patinaformulas.htm#31

[GunClick Rick]

FYI
http://www.rubylane.com/item/167844-8525/216-Split-Rivets-Crescent-L-10

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Hope this helps ....

I built a bed that used galvanized stove bolts, and I could not find any that didn't look brand new .

Then I was watching 'This Old House' on Public TV, and they talked about the 'caning' in old windows ...

The guy restoring some stained glass windows said that any stained glass shop would have little (reusable!) bottles of acid that, when painted on, made lead, galvanizing and COPPER look antique and put on a patina to it.

There is usually two types, one for lead/galvanized and one for COPPER .... and it stips the pretty/shiny finish off and makes it look like it has ben there hundreds of years . It stripped the galvanizing off my stove bolts and left a slghtly red, 'rusted' old pitted surface on the bolt heads.

Over the years, comforters rubbing against it has removed some of the reddish tinge, but it still looks old and antique ...

One CAVEAT; Since this is still an, albeit weak, corrosive acid, I would work with it in a well ventilated spot ...

[Pappy Hayes]

Ten Wolves did you have to apply anything to protect the rivits after the process?

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

Ten Wolves did you have to apply anything to protect the rivits after the process?

      Pappy, the answer to your question, is no, antiquing my rivets is one of the last things I do when finishing a gun belt, it holds up well, and with time the natural patina starts to work also, it will give your work a really nice aged look.

[Chaa Duu Ba Its Iidan]

Hello everyone

I want to do some leatherwork and I'm going to need to know how to use copper rivets.  It looks like some good advice here and I would like a more elementary discussion, if you guys are willing to go there.  I see that the rivets have a head and a burr, which is crimped onto the rivet to hold it in place by using a special tool, an anvil and a hammer, or some other tool.  That's easy for me to follow, but I am a complete novice, never having ever tried this.

Several years ago a professional leatherworker made a belt for me with homemade conchos mounted on it with what he called saddler's rivets and I want to try to duplicate his technique.  .  He tooled a period border design and then mounted old coins onto the belt like conchos.  The coins are domed but it doesn't look like he used a dapping block to make them perfect, because they are irregular looking.  Not a bad effect, really.  That's probably how things like this were done originally.  He drilled holes in the center of each coin and it appears that he used some technique involving a good smack with something to dish them into the concho shape.  Anyway, he said he used saddler's rivets to attach them to the belt.  It looks like he punched the leather and pushed a rivet through from the back, through the hole in the center of each coin and using several precise strokes of some type of pointed hammer, peened the rivet over the holes in the coins to set them in place.  The look is a silver coin, obviously bent into a domed or convex shape and with a copper spot peened over in the middle of it (that copper spot, of course being the end of the rivet).  You can see on the end of the rivet in the middle of each coin where he struck each one three times.  His technique for dishing the coins will be pretty easy to duplicate or to adapt to something else to achieve the same result.  I have a dapping or doming block set, but I just like his more primitive look.

I have several questions.

Is there any difference between the rivets discussed here earlier and saddler's rivets?  It doesn't appear that he used burrs.

Is anyone familiar with this riveting technique and if so can you explain the details and provide tips to do a good job using rivets to mount conchos the way I described?  I don't know if he put the burr over the rivet, then pushed the end of the burr through the coin.  (Does that even sound right?)

The bases of the rivets showing on the backside of the belt appear to be flat and unblemished.  What would he have used for an anvil to get the solid base necessary for the peening hammer to work on the front point of the rivet?

What kind of hammer would deliver those precise blows onto the tiny point of the rivet?

Any advice any of you can pass along will be appreciated, so thanks in advance for your advice.

Chaa Duu Ba Its Iidan

[Slowhand Bob]

A photo would help tremendously here but to the best of my understanding it sounds almost like you might be describing a splash, or tubular, rivet.  They are one of the cheapest styles and though I use them frequently, many leather crafters consider them as indicative of low quality work.  They seem most popular in industry and without care the backs can mar the finish on anything it comes into contact with and when just splash set they are not very attractive.  Splash rivets are available in brass, nickle and copper plated over steel or brass and can be set with the splash setter, a roll setter+ washer or they make caps for them.  Im just making a wild guess based on your decription of a hole in the center and could be all wet here.  Most rivets use special setting tools and one would not be trying to smack them dead center directly with a hammer.  As mentioned earlier, a photo speaks a thousand words and I would actually just like to see the holster.

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

Howdy Chaa Duu Ba Its Iidan


         Slowhand Bob has given you some good information, I can only add that if you dome your coin, drill your hole, make the hole the right size so that it will be snug to your copper rivet, you are using the coin as a burr, after inserting your coin over the rivet after it has been passed through the leather belt, use a setting tool to set the concho down to its tightest fit, then cut the copper rivet stem leaving about an 1/8 of an inch, this is where a good setting tool comes in, I can recommend the Bob Douglas setting tool, I have found it to give me the best looking rivet, I use #12 copper rivets, the set has three tools, one will set the burr, in your case the concho, then after using a nipper to cut the end of the stem, you will use the second tool which will peen over the stem, then the third tool will set the burr, but in your case you won't use the third tool, because your coin will be domed use the peening tool will only and just peen down to what is necessary, I use a 15# anvil for this, but any good anvil will work, just make sure the flat of the rivet is laying flat when doing your setting and peening. the rivet setting set from Bob Douglas isn't cheap, it's $50.00 a set, to me it was worth it, I use copper rivets quite often, so it has payed for itself, it has been the only tool that gives me a nice domed/peened rivet head.

  Bob Douglas, ph# 307-737-2222  he doesn't have a web site

                 Hope this helps

              tEN wOLVES    

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

   Howdy All

        I thought I would add to this thread, last year I bought the Bob Douglas setting tools after taking Chuck Burrows advice on this, and couldn't be happier with them, this is the only setting tool I'll use now, it gives me perfectly set copper rivets, I couldn't ask for a better set. Any one interested can give him a call.

      Bob Douglas phone# is  307-737-2222
     Bob is in Sheridan, Wyoming, he doesn't have a web site, so you need to give him a call, either he or his wife will take good care of you. At last the price of his setters was $50.00 not cheap, but worth every penny if you're doing or want quality set rivets. IMHO


                  Regards

             tEN wOLVES

[Chaa Duu Ba Its Iidan]

SlowHand  & tEN wOLVES,

Thanks for coming back with the advice for proceeding.  I think that I'm beginning to understand how to go and you're right, pictures wouldbe a big help.  Here are two pictures, front and back of the concho and how it is attached to the belt.

So there is no difference between these regular copper rivets and so-called saddler's rivets?

Oooops!  I didn't know I was done after I posted the pictures, so I didn't get a chance to say thank you to you guys who keep coming back here to give me help with this.  So, thanks pards!  This concho attachment thing has had me wondering for a while. 

[Slowhand Bob]

Best I can tell, that is not a slash rivet fer shore.  My eyes are not the best but it looks like a solid copper rivet without a washer and peened a whole lot??  Ill git out of the way so as not to confuse you.

[ChuckBurrows]

From the looks of it I would say it's one half of what is known as cutlers rivets - the solid shaft section and then is just peened over the concho - there is no burr aka washer. My observation is based on the size and thickness of the head.
A #14 or #12 copper rivet would work as well - just use it without the burr, just peened over with a small hammer - a ball peen works good.

[DUKE DEADEYE NUKEM]

Welcome aboard CCBII.