Black Bear vs 45 Colt?

[Knuckles]

Not a bear-shaped steel target, mind you...the real thing.

You encounter a small(er) sized black bear whilst strolling through the hills, you slap leather and your 1873 Colt (or Ruger Vaquero in .367) springs to your hand.

BANG!   

Did you just aggravate the bear and become part of the food chain or did you get new rug for the misses?

Discuss....

[Foothills Drifter]

Howdy......
I'd get a new rug! If I'm out in the woods I ain't usein no coyboy load.....I plan on commin out on top of the food chain 

Good shootin......
Vern...

[Delmonico]

First of all in many if not most places ya better have a few claw marks on you to prove you did have to shoot a out of season game animal with out a permit.  Can be very serious.

Second, are you carring 110 Jhps or something serious.  A proper flat point 180 grain cast bullet wouln not make me fear any black bear that ever lived, but you need to shoot it in the right place.  

If I really worried about it my 375 Winchester 94 Big Bore would be what I carried.  

When was the last time someone was bothered by a black bear near you that didn't deserve it, as in they did something stupid.  Last I knew there were less than 5 such attacks in the whole US in a year and most did something really stupid.

Bees kill far more people than anything else but deer.  

[Will Ketchum]

In Wisconsin you go to jail for shooting a bear without the proper kill permit, which you get after about 5 years of buyig bear hunting licenses.

To answer your question seriously, although getting arrested could be pretty serious.  I wouldn't feel comfortable shooting even a small bear with any .357 or a 45 Colt in a Colt clone.  Perhaps a Vaquero with a hot 45 load and a XTP bullet but even then I'd prefer a rifle.  If I was threatened by the bear and all I had was the 357 I would use it as a last resort but hopefully from high in a tree.

Will Ketchum

[Knuckles]

Just a hypothetical question fellas...

I do appreciate the concern, however, for obeying all local hunting laws, etc.

It was just a discussion we were having, bacially to imagine yourself in a situation (possible in the late 19th century as well) and what would happen with different loads, etc.

[Four-Eyed Buck]

With a 250g full bore BP load, probably. But you might have to hit him more than once, and at that, you'd better hit him really good. Shot placement would be imperative. A .357? Think I'd take a pass, in spite of it's good press.........Buck

[Ozark Iron John]

.......... But you might have to hit him more than once.........Buck

I think my old Pap would say, "Put the first two in his chest right quick.  BOOM!  BOOM!

If that don't stop him, put the third'n on up towards his head.  BOOM!

If he keeps comin atcha, which I highly doubt, roll up into a ball and let him maul you a bit.  When ya get the opportunity to shove that Colt into his mouth, BOOM!  BOOM!"

Lights Out.

Pull out that second revolver and shoot him five more times just for meaness.  Holes Patch!   

[litl rooster]

 My 2cents worth...First off we are talking Black Bears not Kodiaks or a good old fashion I'll eat you and your hiking bells and stick Griz. Living in Montana I have heard (key word) a few stories of Blackies being killed with a .22 caliber. I have rode up on Blacks on several occassions without incident of any kind, not even to rattle the horses. So I guess I am like Delmonico on just shooting one.  Years ago when I first started packing and guiding, I asked about protection for Griz in the the wild, our local gun dealer reccomended the .45LC or a 12gauge with Deer Slug.... Now even with them the rule to remember is; When attacked by a Griz just out run the slowest Pard in the group, Use the .45 and shoot him in the knee cap.........

[Joyce (AnnieLee)]

Litl Rooster reminds me of a story I heard when I was a kid.

Two guys were out camping in the middle of the woods. One night they woke to the sound of something tearing up the camp. They peek out of the tent to discover a bear. The first guy turns, throws on his pants and starts tying his shoes. The second guy looks at him. "What are you doing? You can't outrun a bear!"

"I don't have to," replied the first, "I just have to outrun you."



If I saw a small black bear, I'd probably be as still as possible and watch it go on its merry way, unmolested.

AnnieLee

[litl rooster]

 Annie... I still laugh at that one also

[Delmonico]

Ok, now that the cyber bear has ate Ozark John and Pap, we can get down to some serious ballistic study.  If you have never done any serious penatration testing this might just surprise you, but the 180 FP in our 357 mag cast out of a proper alloy. (this would take a bit more time to explain , but for this job you store bought Cas bullets ain't gonna work)

The 180 FP will penatrate far deeper than your 250/255 gr bullet run at standard 45 colt velocities because of sectional density.  Your 44/45 will need a 300-325 gr bullet to achive the same thing in your 44/45.  And when you get the velocity up to where it should be in a proper gun, you are not going to be able to contol the recoil enough for fast shooting.  And at the distance a bear is dangerous the SA revolver will give you 1-2 shots.

In other words, shoot the bear in the arse, go from the front but put that bullet as deep as possible in the bear.  Go for the nose or below so you don't risk a riccocet off the skull.

Much better don't PO the thing or invite it into your camp.  Most problems are caused by the human leaving food out, bothering a "Cute" little Bobo bear, or a stupid little undisipled dog Po'ing the bear.  In fact I've been told the undisipled dog is the cause of almost all black bear attacks.

[Knuckles]

Lots of good info and stories!

OK...let me throw some "Wild Bunch" in the mix...   

Betwixt the 45 Long Colt or the 45 ACP...which caliber are you most happy you bought along when ole Blackie bares her teeth?

[Delmonico]

When the teeth are bared, ya better be yellin' and cussin' and scarin' the bear poop out of it, cause at the teeth barin' part they gonna hang yer arse for shootin' it.  When it moves your way and gets close enogh to smell it's breath secional density will give you the best chance along with bullet shape and contstution, the brass case it comes out of don't mean squat.  To many varilbles in your question for an honest answer.

[Micheal Fortune]

I think what Knuckles was trying to get at is the .45Colt a viable back up hunting weapon.

Over the years the .45Colt has put a lot of game in the pot. 

I have always carried pistol while hunting as a back up for everything from putting them out of their misery without wasting a rifle shell to shooting them pesky snakes that have just scared me and are too close to to get in the scope.......  I hate it when I step on them......

I hunted the breaks area here for years and while I shoot them on top, they always do the last dive to the bottom.  I learned years ago to leave the rifle on top, got to the bottom and if needed to finish them off with the pistol.  Why?  Because you have to drag that deer up the cliff and it's much easier without that rifle.

I feel comfortable with my .45Colt hunting, no Griz in my back yard but these days there are more, better choices.

.45acp vs .45Colt.  With factory loads, or modern smokeless factory loads the .45Colt comes out on top.  Either are a respectable load.

The .45Colt was the most powerful hand gun cartridge prior to S&W developing the .357 magnum in the 1930's

Black Bear season opens April 15th here...... Cut a rug?

I always loved the cartoon of two Grizzley bears sitting around the campfire, one is picking their teeth with a hikers leg bone and the other says "I just love it when they play dead"

[Delmonico]

I don't read the first post as meaning a back up gun for hunting, I take it as a self defense against bears.  I come to my conclusion years ago doing penatration testing.   Couple of years ago and article in either Handloader or rifle by Phil shoemaker has him saying the same thing and us a DA revolver and he's talkin' big ones. 

Since he knows more about shooting bears than any of use will ever know I respect his position.  The fact one of his daughters recently had proved his theroy on a large grizzy that wanted to do bad things to her comferms it ain't a bad theroy.

[Micheal Fortune]

I don't read the first post as meaning a back up gun for hunting, I take it as a self defense against bears.  I come to my conclusion years ago doing penatration testing.   Couple of years ago and article in either Handloader or rifle by Phil shoemaker has him saying the same thing and us a DA revolver and he's talkin' big ones. 

Since he knows more about shooting bears than any of use will ever know I respect his position.  The fact one of his daughters recently had proved his theroy on a large grizzy that wanted to do bad things to her comferms it ain't a bad theroy.

Not familure with Phil Shoemaker, but I don't get out much. 

Ok, .45Colt as self defence against bears....... Sure I guess but there are much better things out there these days in the handgun line.  .44mag, .454Causaul (sp?) and the new S&W 500

The best defence is "stay the heck out of bear town"   

[Delmonico]

Phil Shoemaker lives up in the 49th State and spends part of the year (bear season) charging dudes to find them a big mean bear for them to make a rug out of.  On these trips he carries "Ole Ugly"  a nasty lookig 98 Mauser in an ugly fiberglass, not plastic stock with fixed irion sights.  It has that gooey stuff they put on airplane wings to keep stunt men from slipping where the checkering should be and I belive if I 'member right he treats it to a coat of rust-o-leum every year or so.  It is a 458 Win mag.   The rest of the year he traps and write an ocasinal story for a magazine.

He is one of the few living gunwriters I even bother to read any more.  His therooy that seemed to work for his daugher is that 6 controled shots that go in deep but make only a slightly smaller hole are better than one or maybe two that might not be as well controled.  (The folks who can really control a heavy 44 or 45 in rapid fire are about as common as bridges for sale.)

Since bears most often eat or kill people who do stupid things, it might not be that big of a loss.

I have only had to stand offs with wild animals, the mouse that might have had rabies, it ended ugly for him.  28 gauge and 7/8 oz shot, over kill yes, but the problem was solved, nothing left but the tail.

The 5X5 buck that was out of season that took a dislike to me ended much better, he did not cross the line I mentally drew on the ground and I did not see if a 70 gr Hornaday SX in 243 Caliber at 3200 fps would go deep enough to stop him.  That ended at about 30 feet, about 25 feet was the imaginary line.  And yes I did something very stupid coyote hunting.  He thought I was after his girlfriends, rut started earlier than I thought that year.

And in reality any gun in hand would be better than pepper spray, the bear might use it to make chili.

[Will Ketchum]

One of our bear biologists once told me that if your going to get attacked by a bear that it is better to get attacked by a Grizzly than a Black Bear.  the reasons are that a Grizzly attacks by nature and will many time maul it;s victim but if they play dead won't kill them.  Where a Black Bear normally will retreat but if they attack they will kill and most likely eat you.

I have a book on Alaskan Bear attacks which says the same thing.  One instance a geology graduate student working on a survey was attacked by a black bear.  She was on her radio during the entire attack and those listening could hear the bear chewing on her.  By the time they got to the scene she was nearly completely devoured. The bear was tracked down and killed it turned out to be in poor shape and probably attacked out of hunger.

Will Ketchum

[Willie Wheelgun]

Out in this country we have a few Black Bears.  Now don't kid yourself, you get between a sow and her cubs you are in serious trouble.
Many years ago Ruger came out with a single shot resolver in I believe 256 (it has been a long time).  I came upon a group of people on Tiger Mountain, just outside of Issaquah, Washington.  A black bear, probably spooked by all the people on trail bikes and hiking took off down a steep hillside right at the guy that had the new Ruger.  He looked at his options and shot that bear at about ten feet.  The bear died right next to him.  He was so shook up he could not talk!  The guys with him had to relate the story.
If you want to die for a Grizzly because some green law says you cannot hurt this criter, be my guest.  Just don't think I will risk my life for some pretty stupid rules.
I spend a lot of time in Idaho and Montana.  Don't tell those folks bears are not a threat!
Willie

[Willie Wheelgun]

Will, sounds real good.  About a year ago there was a series of pictures of a quite dead guy that thought he was a soul partner with Brown Bears in Alaska.  Bear ate most of the guy.
I believe the gal you are talking about played dead while the bear ate her lymph nodes.  Buried her and left her.  Her companions came in several days later by helicopter and saw the bear.  After chasing it off, they found her still alive and got her out of there.  No mention of a starving bear.  I get really tired of the greenies trying to convince us that wild animals are really safe.  Well, put one in their back yard.  I said and I repeat, put a grizzly or wolf in their back yard!  That is what they are trying to legislate for people in Montana, Idaho, Washington, Wyoming, etc.
Live it before you legislate it, okay.
By the way, one of the most popular calibers in Alaska is .45.  Yup, 45-70 guide gun.  Big bullet, lots of power, and lot of back-up.  Also, for the two gun post, in Alaska in a bear attack, you save the last round for yourself to deprive the critter of the joy of killing you.