Black Powder

[Cornwell Kidd]

    Any one using any of the three powders ?  Elephant Sporting , Diamond Back Sporting , or Wano.
  I found at a fair Price. in 25 lbs lots  Looking at 3f  also would 2f work well in a 36 cal. as I can load 12 Ga. with it. I am just getting into Holy Smoke and learning.                                             Cornwell Kidd

[Noz]

I've heard nothing bad about any of them(I've used and like WANO). Learned ones say FFFg for the 36 but FFg will work. I shoot 44/40, 12 ga and 1860 44s and FFg works well in all of them.

[Flint]

As Noz said, a 36 prefers 3fg.  In cap & ball revolvers, 3fg works best also in 44 caliber, but 2f is OK, but burns dirtier and gives lower velocity.  Most cartridges should use 2fg, as Noz uses in the 44-40 and shotgun.  Cartridges are more efficient with the crimp and a heavier bullet, and 2fg is good.  If using a sub like 777 in cartridge loading, 2fg is recommended by Hogdon, and 3fg is not.

[Mako]

+3 on the 3F for .36 caliber

[Springfield Slim]

For what it's worth, I dn't believe Elephant is available anymore, so you may be switching in the future when it runs out. I used it for a time, was OK but ran dirtier than WANO.

[Ranch 13]

If there's a nastier heavier fouling powder than Elephant I've been deprived the privleges of shooting it. Elephant can deliver some good accuracy, but as it's not been fresh made for the last several years don't get used to it.
No experience with Diamond Back it is fairly new to the market.
Wano is fairly decent powder.

[Mako]

Kidd,
I'm going to share with you the "dirty" secret of BP for CAS shooting (short range) with Pistols, Rifles and Shotguns.
 
Now hold up your right hand and repeat after me, "I solemnly swear I will not reveal the secrets of the dark lords,  I will wave my hands and make as much fuss as possible to make all who are uninitiated think that BP is magic and high science..."

Done that?  Ok now the secret.  THERE ISN'T ANY...  You could use sweepings off of the floor in a powder mill and it would probably work fine.  Goex, KIK, Scheutzen, Swiss, Diamond Back, Elephant, Chipmunk or Mouse.  It all will work surprisingly well at the short ranges we shoot our SASS, GAF, NCOWS, W3G , etc. at. 

The "accepted"  Rule of Thumb is 3F under .44 caliber, or some say .44 and below,  2F in larger .44 cases (probably .44spl definitely .44-40, .38-40 too) and above, 2F or 1F for Shotgun shells.   But it is just a guide, I have shot 2F in .44 Russian {a lot}, and 3F in .45 Colt, and I have shot 3F, 2F and 1F in shotshells.  The reality of it is that you could use 2F for everything and never feel like you were doing anything that didn't make sense. 

I will tell you I normally use 3F in all of my C&B pistols .32, .36 and .44 caliber; I also use it in .38 spl and small .44 and .45 cases (read that as .44 Russian and .45 Cowboy Spl.).  I use 2F in anything else that is a pistol cartridge .44 and above and use 1F in my shotgun shells.  I used to use 2F in shotguns and would again if I ran out of 1F.

I have a hard time detecting any difference in cleanliness between brands, others swear by a "clean" brand, and they all clean up with water.  They all go boom and make nice smoke and shoot flame!  COOOOOL!  Which is why I shoot 1F in shotguns, cool flames and nice smoke.  I tend to use 2F in larger cartridges because a can is sold by weight and the volume is a bit greater (meaning more reloads).  I use 3F in smaller cartridges because you need efficient burning to get your velocity up with that little bullet.  I use 3F with C&B because it also needs to be efficient and quicker burning, there isn't a crimp on a case to help build pressure which calls for a faster burning powder.

Now if you want to shoot longrange BPCR forget everything I just said.  There the quality and consistency of the powder counts.  If you do want to shoot BPCR, ask specifically about that and we will direct you to those who are the experts at that game.

So go buy yourself the cheapest powder you can find and be smug in knowing that you possess the secret.  Powder Inc. has great online prices, they include shipping and hazmat fees in the cost.  Check out the Diamondback or KIK they are very good deals.  Or if you want a RED can they sell Goex at attractive prices as well.

Have Fun!

Mako

[Blackpowder Burn]

Mako,

What do you consider the best black powder for long range rifle?  Specifically the 40-65 in a Browning High Wall, or the 38-55 in a lever gun?  At present I'm shooting Goex FFg.

[Ranch 13]

AD try some Goex 3f Express in that 40-65. Start at 55 grs and work head towards 60 grs with either the Lyman Snover, or the Rcbs 400 CSA bullet.

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy Aggie,

What kinds of velocities are you getting from those two guns now?  I've found FFg a bit course for my 38-55.  I don't shoot a 40-65 so I can't give you any input there.

My 38-55 thrives on a diet of FFFg Schuetzen (latest manufacture).  It also likes a 5% charge of SR4759 under the bp if you are looking for a little more oomph.  The DD-38-55 RNFP 255 grain bullet works great in my Winchester 94 Legendary Frontiersman.

DD-DLoS

[Mako]

Mako,

What do you consider the best black powder for long range rifle?  Specifically the 40-65 in a Browning High Wall, or the 38-55 in a lever gun?  At present I'm shooting Goex FFg.

Howdy Ag!
I am going to defer to Ranch 13 and Dick.  I don't have that much experience with smaller than .45-70 loads.  I have loaded some .32 Winchester Spl. loads in BP (for one match  ) and I used 3F Goex (regular) upon recommendation by some .38-55 shooters.  I would have used Goex Express or Swiss if I had any in 3F. 

I have Swiss 2F  and I was given about a third of a "can" of 1.5 Swiss to try in my .45-70.  I figured I'd try the 1.5 which I have heard raves about for 500+ grain bullets in .45-70.  But to answer your question I don't have enough experience in long range BP shooting to have a preference I could defend.  It would be purely based on several years of on and off "long range" BP shooting, a lot of assumptions and what I have been told by friends I trust.  Some of them swear by Goex Express, some by Swiss.  It may take me years and definitley more practice and matches to determine what is the "best" for me.

I have a friend who shoots Cody Dixon with Marlins in .38-55 and .30-30 I can ask him or give you his email.  I'm not sure he is on the level of a long range expert, but he has a lot of BP experience and he's a trained scientist so we speak the same language (results based).  You may have even shot with him in Columbus, he's not a member of this forum so I'll give you his name offline if you want it.

All that being said, we have some serious long range shooters who haunt this forum, they will be a good place to start.  Have you tried over on the BROW board as well?

Later,
Mako

[Blackpowder Burn]

Mako,

Yep, I've been on BROW as well as Marlin forums (my 38-55 is a new Marlin).  Based on your comments posted here yesterday, I thought I'd take the opportunity to get your opinion.  I haven't had anyone yet recommend the use of 3F in the 38-55, but I happen to have a can of Goex, and will certainly give it a try.  My interest with it is Cody Dixon, so I would appreciate the contact in Columbus.  I haven't shot there yet, but am close enough to do so.  I presently shoot with a club northwest of Houston (in Magnolia), but we don't have the room for that type of shoot.

My experience with long range is very limited, but I'm also working with a new (circa 2001) Browning High Wall in 40-65.  I spent several years working out of the country shortly after purchasing it, and am just now really starting to experiment with it.

I do appreciate the results based observations of folks like you.  A lot of well intentioned pards just don't have the data to back up their claims.

Thanks for the input.

[john boy]

Mako,
What do you consider the best black powder for long range rifle?  Specifically the 40-65 in a Browning High Wall, or the 38-55 in a lever gun?  At present I'm shooting Goex FFg.

I'll jump in for Mako ...
Aggie, I shoot quite a bit of long range ot to 1000yds and the answer is ... It Depends.  Goex FFg works for both calibers at longer ranges.  It really depends on how you make your reload and what each rifle likes, powder/bullet combination.  Ranch and I both are fans of Goex CTG (Cartridge) but the majority of the top notch match shooters use Swiss 1.5. 
For the 38-55, 42grs of FFg or CTG and the Lyman 378674 will make you proud out to 500 meters with a good set of eyes.  Out to a 1000yds, 70grs Goex CTG (compressed hard) has given me good groups in a 45-70 and so has 70grs Swiss 1.5 (lightly compressed).
My latest reload bullet/powder combination that worked nicely with Swiss 1.5 .... http://shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=13660

PS: Three years ago, Bill Bagwell's wife took the Ladies Silhouette Championship at Raton using a 40-65 and Goex powder

[Ranch 13]

 Cartridge will deliver decent accuracy in the 40-65, but 3f express will deliver both the accuracy and the velocity to make those 40's do the 1000 yd dance. But then my wife has only come in 3rd in two different matches, and made dang good showings in others with her 40-65, That rifle will also print groups a bit over 4 inches at 550 yds, but I guess I'm just one of those good intentioned, but non experienced fella's mentioned previous.
I watched Bill's wife and her 40-65, be the only shooter at Kenny W's  creedmore to hit the Marston target at something along the lines of 1200 yds.

I also know of a young fella that shoots the 38-55 he won as the junior draw winner at the Quigley a few years back. Holy terror with that rifle, he uses Cartridge and 3f express, and the 300 gr Ideal bullet.

[Mako]

See Ag?

I told you there were folks a'comin'...

Thank you John Boy, and Ranch 13 as well.

~Mako

[Blackpowder Burn]

John Boy and Ranch 13 - Thanks for all the info.  Looks like I need to buy some Express and give it a try.  Do any of you have any experience with the Big Lube bullet in the 38-55?  My rifle (a new Marlin) has a 0.380" bore and locating bullets that diameter is a little difficult.  At present, I've been working with Goex FFg in the 40 to 44 grain range, with a 0.030 fiber wad, the Big Lube bullet and a profile crimp.  I've been able to get groups of 1.5" to 2" with that combination in the Starline brass (original length).

I'm really glad to hear that the 40-65 will reach out to 1,000 yards with the proper combination.  I just had a couple of folks at our local club assuring me last weekend that it was useless past 500 yards.  I'd like to go back to Raton and try to ring the buffalo some day.

Great information and now I have lots more permutations to go play with!

[Ranch 13]

 Right now seems there's a bunch of folks with magnumitice in the world of bpcr, and they are just like the same ones in the world of biggame hunting, they have little to no experience from which to base the (pick the small cartridge) won't work past 500 yds statement from but are for the most part regurgitating stuff they have read on the net.
  For the longrange stuff find the 400 gr bullet you and your rifle can live with and never look back. For shorter ranges bullets like the rcbs 300csa, and we've even had good results to 300 with the lyman 412263 sized down to .410. Word of caution here, lyman has the 385 gr pointy bullet that will shoot like a house afire until the wind comes up and a 10 mph cross wind will keyhole those bullets at 200 yds.

Not enough experience with the 38-55 to be of any help, but I do know that those that master the cartridge have decent results to 1000 yds with it , even in some really nasty winds.

[john boy]

Aggie, back in March 2007, I played around with the Bug Lube 38-55 in a HiWall:
Big Lube      250gr   247 BC 1:20 Alloy
Star 1.25   Br2   Dupont 1F   40gr   .02 Felt Wad   2.559 COAL   1009 fps
First of all, I don't shoot the bullet in a Lever, I feed them one at a time in 30" barrel Single Shot rifles
Out to 200yds, the bullet did OK but there are better cast bullets for shooting this and longer distances.  The Saeco 571 and Lyman 378674 will shoot accurately out to 500 meters.  These bullets made it also to a 800yd target.  This Summer, I'll be testing the accuracy of the re-make of the Ideal 375166, 320gr bullet ... which also was a Single Shot rifle bullet

I haven't cast or shot the Big Lube since 2007

[Bryan Austin]

Skirmish $11 a pound, or was my last two pounds.
Uberti 5.5 SAA
44-40
WLP
200 Mav big lube bullet
38gr Skirmish

Chronograph at the Muzzle (12ft)
891fps 284 energy

(Compared to 38gr Pyrodex-P @ 965fps 413 energy)

Target 50 feet Slow Fire
One handed, gunfighter
5 shots, reload five shots
less than 30 seconds

score
3-0
1-4
3-5
2-6
1-7
= 38
(Accuracy is my problem, not the load..lol)

(NOTE) I used wrong target, layed correct target over wrong target and traced holes)

[Springfield Slim]

The Lyman 378674 might be a bit pointy to use in a lever gun. But the lever guns weren't really meant for 800 yard shooting, nor the 38-55 either.