Cap problems

[Cornwell Kidd]

  Hi Pards
Looking for help with my 1860's  .  The caps keep falling off and jaming the gun up. I have put new nipples trico's (not spelled right) in both guns tried Remington #10 Renington#11.  Cleaned up action per Pettiefogger's Cowboy Chronicle. I am about to give up and go to conversions or just maybe back to that other smokeless stuff.  I have 2 1851 Navys that work a little better but still don't run good enough to shoot in a match. If this was a real fight I would be Dead.          Cornwell Kidd

[Doc O]

I don't know if your shooting 1 or 2 handed.
I have found that with 2 hands I will get jams in the guns.
With using 1 hand the gun will roll back and up and as your cocking to the next round the spent cap will flip off to the side and not down into the action.
Other my be able to explain this better then me.
Doc

[Fox Creek Kid]

Need more info.... Pinching caps? Pushing them all the way on? Light hammer spring? Etc., etc.

[Cornwell Kidd]

  I am shooting two handed I am pushing them on with a hardwood rod after putting cap on nipple. some fall in hammer some fall off half way around and jam. all fire first hit if there is no spent cap in hammer channel. can't get 5 rounds off with out a problem.   

[Cuts Crooked]

  I am shooting two handed I am pushing them on with a hardwood rod after putting cap on nipple. some fall in hammer some fall off half way around and jam. all fire first hit if there is no spent cap in hammer channel. can't get 5 rounds off with out a problem.   

Ok, let's try pinching some and then putting them on and see wat 'appens. Pinch em enuff that it's a bit difficult to get them on, seat em wif yer dowl, 'n give er a try. might could be they jist ain't tight enuff. Although...Treso nips usually werk better 'n that.

[Brizco-Z]

Pard,

Just some further suggestions, as mensitoned before, make sure you're using a good, full weight main spring.  A light hammer spring will allow the hammer to rebound a bit and the cap wil drive back just enough to become dislodged and drop into the action.  If you are ussing new Tesco (sic) nipples, then try uping and then downing your powder charge.  Shoot a cylinder full of lighter loads and then a cylinder full of hotter loads, just a few grains eaither way.  Keeping within the recommended range for your caliber, of course.  For some C&B revolvers, a light load will not cause enough back pressure to seep back through the nipple to rebound the hammer, or push the hammer slightly back.

Also, make sure your contact surface of the hammer is smooth and without machining marks.  Powder residue is one thing to keep cleaned off of the hammer face however, if the hammer face is significantly marred for the factiory, the cap can bind to the hammer and then be pulled off the niblle easier, after the cap has been fired.  The hammer face is another important surface to keep clean and very smooth.  I've shot a lot of the C&B revolers, all types and about three to four different manufacturers, most made today are pretty good quality but, every so often you get a lemon,.....and not a lemon squeezer either.

I have a nice pair of 51's, unmodified and they normally shoot just fine.  However, every so often I have a cap hangup after a few stages.  Now i do the little side tilt with these pistols when I cock them to allow the spent cap to drop out of the side, straight down, turn it to the right side, as you cock for the next round.  This side tilt is not to bad, slows you very little bit but, once you've done it a few time, ain't too bad.  Main thing to do is to try to get them running right in the first place.

Good luck to you and keep at it, let us know how things turn out.

Brizco-Z

[Count Sandor]

I don't know if this will be any help, but my son had a problem with caps falling off his 58's. Finally figured out the problem was with the cappers and caps - Remington caps were hanging up in the cappers and getting just a tiny little split at the edge, would seem to press on normally with the dowel, then would work loose from the concussion and fall off. Generally the split would be on the side of the cap that wound up facing inward, couldn't see it. There was a thread on this forum or maybe the SASS Wire about newer Remington caps being a few thousandths longer and hanging up in the cappers. The solution was to carefully stretch the cappers with a small screwdriver so the new caps fit - cured the problem completely - except for one damp cylinder at our last (very rainy) shoot, he hasn't had a no-fire or dropped cap since. As they say, your mileage may vary...

Good Shooting,
Count Sandor

[Dick Dastardly]

And here I thought I was all alone.  I've been shooting my brace of original ROAs with the C&B cylinders to get field experience with my Tower of Power cylinder loading stand.  Mostly, they are foolproof.  But, I proved to be an ingenious fool and had one go pop today instead of BOOM.  Third stage of the day.  Some light rain, but I was loading under my big umbrella, so no problem.  I'd run Two stages trouble free and then got the dang pop.  Only one of the day.  Guess it goes with the territory when shooting Frontiersman.  FWIW, I was shootn' 'em GF just for giggles.  Geezer Frontiersman Gunfighter. . .

I'm thinkn' that something was in the torch hole and I missed it.  So, I'm adding a music wire nipple pick to my ditty box.

Hope this makes you feel a little better.  The ROAs are the most trouble free C&B guns made and even they can pack up now and then.

DD-DLoS

[Noz]

If you are shooting heavy loads this will happen. I started with 30 grs in my 1860s and have backed down to about 25 grs(FFFg). This load level allows a good solid recoil feedback but not enough to blow the caps off of the nipples. My caps either remain on the nipples or clear to the right side as designed.

[Howdy Doody]

Dick Dastardly touched on something that helps shoot a match with no pistol problems with C&B. After loading up the cylinders, whether by the ram on the pistol or a tower of power press, take the time to run a pick into each nipple. I use a paper clip myself. I carry a bunch of them in my guncart and I just straighten on end of the paperclip and use the rest as sort of a handle. I run the clip down each nipple until I can feel it hit the powder. This makes me sure there is no debris to keep a cap from lighting off the powder.

#10 Remington caps seem to fit most everything. The have that folded edge that expands to fit and maybe help hold the cap on. I have had problems with all the other brands. I used RWS caps for a while, but I had to pinch them a tad to hold on to the nipple. The Remington caps fit pretty well.
I had an odd happening a couple years ago and it was the heat of the summer that did it. I had stuck my inline capper in a shirt pocket. I did not realize until I capped up and had a couple dead caps and of course a couple misses too. I found the gel in the nipples, unfired. That is a sure sign of wet caps. I then realized my sweat from the capper being in my pocket that I was my own worst enemy. Things like that trip you up. 

[Flint]

Another thing I ran into a month or so back was an effect caused by the nipples being too clean.  At the first loading, I had two caps falll off for a failure to fire while shooting the stage.  Subsequent caps on that cylinder were fine, once the nipples were dirty enough not to be slippery.

These were Remington #10 caps on new factory Pietta nipples, which are a hair looser than Treso nipples, but worked OK.  Incidently, newly made Pietta nipples are consistant and well made, unlike the older Pietta nipples of a few years ago and more.  Their only fault is the larger flash hole, which has more back pressure than the Treso.

This is a good argument for the practice many have of firing a cap on each chamber before loading powder, except I had loaded 8 cylinders, and I didn't want to waste 40 caps that way.

When I load off the gun on a "Tower of Power" type loading stand, at home the night before a shoot, I clean/degrease the cylinders with Brake Cleaner and blow them out with an air compressor before loading.  Reloading the cylinders at the match is only needed if there are more stages than you have cylinders.

[Mako]

Hey Kidd,
I am still a bit vague on where your caps are falling off.  Are they falling off before or after you fire them? I have heard of people having them "fall off" before they are fired but I have only witnessed it once in the years I have been shooting.  It fell off at the loading port before it advanced around.

Spent caps falling off is normal, it was the design intent.  Sometimes it is aggravating because the split and flattened caps carry around past the loading area Colt envisioned them falling off at.  

Spent caps falling into the hammer slot is also something we live with.  You can help minimize it by doing three things:

• Fill that slot in the face of the hammer in with JB Weld or have it welded up and the face cut square again.  The slot is intended to allow 6 rounds to be loaded with the hammer resting on one of the safety studs between the tubes.  Sometimes caps extrude back into that slot and get sucked off.


• If you don't want to add metal to your face, then grease that hammer face lightly at the loading table.  After you have capped your five chambers.  A tube of cheap chapstick works well (for those of you looking for Old West authenticity use Bee's Wax ChapStick (Burts ); or a bit of oil (small amount ) on your finger.
  
  Take note!!! Small amount of chapstick "wax on, wax off"  extra may make the cap stick to the hammer, you're just making it slick.
  
  Then carefully lower it on the empty chamber.  Don't do it when you charge your cylinders because it may get transferred to one of your "loaded" chambers and inhibit ignition.  Before you load again use a brush to clean all of your cones and make sure you don't get oil or wax contamination on those cones.



• You have to have a full power mainspring and them some if you can get it.  VTI had some of the older Uberti springs a month ago. I ordered a pair to check out.  They are better than the current ones but still not like the original Colt springs.  I have Modified USFA  springs (intended for their SAAs) in all of my Ubertis they have to be shortened a very small amount, but they provide more power.  It has already been explained that the back pressure through the tube will actually push the hammer back quite often making  the cap hang at the edge of the hammer slot only to fall into the slot upon cocking.

Howdy Doody mentioned a tube pick, a good idea except a paper clip won't work for your Treso Tubes.  Tresos have a very small flash hole where it goes into the chamber.  The rear opening is large but if you look you will see it necks down a LOT.  Find a small wire which will fill into this hole if you are going to pick between stages, otherwise a larger pick like a paper clip will just mash stuff down to the hole and clog it.  Find a small wire, loop one end and attach it to a lanyard so you won't lose it.

Tell us a bit more about your pistols, Uberti or Pietta?  How much powder and what Grain size (2F or 3F, or other).

A couple of last words...Pinching caps is just to keep them fully seated until they are fired, a high cap sometimes doesn't go off because it absorbs the blow as the hammer strikes it and pushes it home.  No amount of pinching or even a "perfectly" fit cap will keep all of them on after firing.  You really should be shooting one handed, if you are shooting 2 handed you are automatically in one of the "traditional" or age bracket classes.  You are required to shoot duelist style to be shooting Frontiersman.  And as you have discovered C&B is not for the faint of heart.  It can be a lot of fun, but it takes a bit of work.  You can shoot match after match without a problem and then have nothing but problems.

Best of luck to you, we will be here to help if you want to ride this one to success,

Mako

[Matt Bastardson]

Now you know why they carried swords and bowies back in the day.

[Fox Creek Kid]

...once the nipples were dirty enough not to be slippery...

Naw, it's too easy. 

[Cornwell Kidd]

   Thanks to all for the help. I am going to try all the things that was brought up one at a time to see what helps at 63 I don't shoot that fast so just going bang is what is in it for me.                    Cornwell Kidd

[Noz]

Get good at shooting them at 63 then when you get to 70 like me you'll still be shooting them.

[Montana Slim]

A few tips from a no-vise:
Pinching caps.....I won't do it...simply, it adds a great deal of variability to the equation.
I work the factory cones until they are uniform and caps fit consistently, correctly and ignite reliably.
I see most everyone here is using Remington caps. I use CCI....#10s fit my Ubertis, #11 fits my Piettas.
Pressing a cap on too firmly can "kill" it, so be careful of this practice.
Face of the hammer...I don't weld or fill the notch on my many Colts. I'd rather radius the edges to elininate places for the cap to "stick".
The face must impact the cone evenly, and may need to be squared.
Light load, heavy load, I'd don't see a difference in reliability of my assorted C&B.

Or, I could just be lucky.

Regards,
Slim

[River City John]

A good source for thin wires to go through Treso holes, . . if you know a guitar player, or any stringed instrument player, a .010 steel string works well.

[Mako]

A good source for thin wires to go through Treso holes, . . if you know a guitar player, or any stringed instrument player, a .010 steel string works well.

Thank you John,
That's useful information.

A pleasant evening to you,
Mako

[Appalachian Ed]

Making sure the hammer face is square to the nipple has solved several ignition problems I have had on a variety of percussion guns. Good advice Montana!